Is America turning into a police state slowly?

Discussion in 'The Future' started by Inquiring-Mind, Dec 17, 2005.

  1. El Guzano

    El Guzano Banned

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    Randy Weaver's wife was dead, shot through the head while she clutched her
    child to her breast. His son was shot, twice. First they shot the child's
    arm, probably destroyed the arm. The child cried out. Then, as the child
    was running they shot him in the back. Randy Weaver himself had been shot
    and wounded and Kevin Harris, a kid the Weavers had all but adopted was
    dying of a chest wound. The blood hadn't cooled on Ruby Hill before the
    national media announced that I had taken the defense of Randy Weaver. Then
    all hell broke loose. My sister wrote me decrying my defense of this
    "racist". There were letters to the editors in several papers that
    expressed their disappointment that I would lend my services to a person
    with Weaver's beliefs. And I received a letter from my close friend Alan
    Hirschfield, the former chairman of chief executive officer of Columbia
    Pictures and Twentieth Century Fox, Imploring me to withdraw.

    He Wrote:

    "After much thought I decided to write this letter to you. It represents a
    very profound concern on my part regarding your decision to represent Randy
    Weaver. While I applaud and fully understand your motives in taking such a
    case, I nonetheless find this individual defense troubling. It is so
    because of the respectability and credibility your involvement imparts to a
    cause which I find despicable.
    .(....remainder of letter deleted for brevity, but wanted Gerry to not
    defend Weaver, as it would support the militant groups......)



    The next morning I delivered the following letter by carrier to Mr
    Hirschfield

    "I cherish your letter. It reminds me once again of our friendship, for
    only friends can speak and hear each other in matters so deeply a part of
    the soul. And your letter reminds me as well, as we must all be reminded,
    of the unspeakable pain every Jew has suffered from the horrors of the
    Holocaust. No better evidence of our friendship could be shown than your
    intense caring concerning what I do and what I stand for.

    I met Randy Weaver in jail on the evening of his surrender. His eyes had no
    light in them. He was unshaven and dirty. He was naked except for yellow
    plastic prison coveralls, and he was cold. His small feet were clad in
    rubber prison sandals. In the stark setting of the prison conference room
    he seemed diminutive and fragile. He had spent 11 days and nights in a
    standoff against the government and he had lost. His wife was dead. His son
    was dead. His friend was near death. Weaver himself had been wounded. He
    had lost his freedom. He had lost it all. And now he stood face to face
    with a stranger who towered over him and whose words were not words of
    comfort. When I spoke, you, Alan, were on my mind.

    "My name is Gerry Spence" I began. "I'm the lawyer you've been told about.
    Before we begin to talk I want you to understand that I do not share any of
    your political or religious beliefs. Many of my dearest friends are Jews.
    My daughter is married to a Jew. My sister is married to a black man. She
    has adopted a black child. I deplore what the Nazis stand for. If I defend
    you I will not defend your political beliefs or your religious beliefs, but
    your right as an American citizen to a fair trial." His quiet answer was,
    "That is all I ask." Then I motioned him to a red plastic chair and I took
    a similar one. And as the guards marched by and from time to time peered
    in, he told his story.

    Alan, you are a good and fair man. That I know. Were it otherwise we would
    not be such friends. Yet it is your pain I hear most clearly--exacerbated,
    I know, by the fact that your friend should represent your enemy. Yet what
    drew me to this case was my own pain. Let me tell you the facts.

    Randy Weaver's principal crime against the government had been his failure
    to appear in court on a charge of possessing illegal firearms. The first
    crime was not his. He had been entrapped--intentionally, systematically,
    patiently, purposefully entrapped--by a federal agent who solicited him to
    cut off, contrary to Federal law, the barrels of a couple of shotguns.
    Randy Weaver never owned an illegal weapon in his life. He was not engaged
    in the manufacture of illegal weapons. The idea of selling an illegal
    firearm had never entered his mind until the government agent suggested it
    and encouraged him to act illegally. The government knew he needed the
    money. He is as poor as an empty cupboard. He had three daughters, a son
    and a wife to support. He lived in a small house in the woods without
    electricity or running water. Although he is a small, frail man, with tiny,
    delicate hands who probably weighs no more than a hundred and twenty
    pounds, he made an honest living by chopping firewood and by seasonal work
    as a logger.

    This man is wrong, his beliefs are wrong. His relationship to mankind is
    wrong. He was perhaps legally wrong when he failed to appear and defend
    himself in court. But the first wrong was not his. Nor was the first wrong
    the government's. The first wrong was ours.

    In this country we embrace the myth that we are still a democracy when we
    know that we are not a democracy, that we are not free, that the government
    does not serve us but subjugates us. Although we give lip service to the
    notion of freedom, we know the government is no longer the servant of the
    people but, at last has become the people's master. We have stood by like
    timid sheep while the wolf killed, first the weak, then the strays, then
    those on the outer edges of the flock, until at last the entire flock
    belonged to the wolf. We did not care about the weak or about the strays.
    they were not a part of the flock. We did not care about those on the outer
    edges. They had chosen to be there. But as the wolf worked its way towards
    the center of the flock we discovered that we were now on the outer edges.
    Now we must look the wolf squarely in the eye. That we did not do so when
    the first of us was ripped and torn and eaten was the first wrong. It was
    our wrong.

    That none of us felt responsible for having lost our freedom has been a
    part of an insidious progression. In the beginning the attention of the
    flock was directed not to the marauding wolf but to our own deviant members
    within the flock. We rejoiced as the wolf destroyed them for they were our
    enemies. We were told that the weak lay under the rocks while we faced the
    blizzards to rustle our food, and we did not care when the wolf took them.
    We argued that they deserved it. When one of our flock faced the wolf alone
    it was always eaten. Each of us was afraid of the wolf, but as a flock we
    were not afraid. Indeed the wolf cleansed the herd by destroying the weak
    and dismembering the aberrant element within. As time went by, strangely,
    the herd felt more secure under the rule of the wolf. It believed that by
    belonging to this wolf it would remain safe from all the other wolves. But
    we were eaten just the same.

    No one knows better than children of the Holocaust how the lessons of
    history must never be forgotten. Yet Americans, whose battle cry was once,
    "Give me liberty or give me death", have sat placidly by as a new king was
    crowned. In America a new king was crowned by the shrug of our shoulders
    when our neighbors were wrongfully seized. A new king was crowned when we
    capitulated to a regime that is no longer sensitive to people, but to non
    people--to corporations, to money and to power. The new king was crowned
    when we turned our heads as the new king was crowned as we turned our heads
    as the poor and the forgotten and the damned were rendered mute and
    defenseless, not because they were evil but because, in the scheme of our
    lives, they seemed unimportant, not because they were essentially dangerous
    but because they were essentially powerless. The new king was crowned when
    we cheered the government on as it prosecuted the progeny of our ghettos
    and filled our prisons with black men whose first crime was that they were
    born in the ghettos. We cheered the new king on as it diluted our right to
    be secure in our homes against unlawful searches and to be secure in the
    courts against unlawful evidence. We cheered the new king on because we
    were told that our sacred rights were but "loopholes" but which our
    enemies: the murderers and rapists and thieves and drug dealers, escaped.
    We were told that those who fought for our rights, the lawyers, were worse
    than the thieves who stole from us in the night, that our juries were
    irresponsible and ignorant and ought not to be trusted. We watched with
    barely more than a mumble as the legal system that once protected us became
    populated with judges who were appointed by the new king. At last the new
    king was crowned when we forgot the lessons of history, that:when the
    rights of our enemies have been wrested from them, we have lost our own
    rights as well, for the same rights serve both citizen and criminal.

    When Randy Weaver failed to appear in court because he had lost his trust
    in the government we witnessed the fruit of our crime. The government
    indeed had no intent to protect his rights. The government had but one
    purpose, as it remains today, the disengagement of this citizen from
    society. Those who suffered and died in the Holocaust must have exquisitely
    understood such illicit motivations of power.

    I have said that I was attracted to the case out of my own pain. Let me
    tell you the facts: a crack team of trained government marksmen sneaked on
    to Randy Weaver's small isolated acreage on a reconnaissance mission
    preparatory to a contemplated arrest. They wore camouflage suits and were
    heavily armed. They gave Randy no warning of their coming. They came
    without a warrant. They never identified themselves.

    The Weavers owned 3 dogs, 2 small crossbred collie mutts and a yellow lab,
    a big pup a little over a year old whose most potent weapon was his tail
    with which he could beat a full grown man to death. The dog, Striker, was a
    close member of the Weaver family. Not only was he the companion of the
    children, but in winter he pulled the family sled to haul their water
    supply from the spring below. When the dogs discovered the intruders they
    raised a ruckus, and Randy his friend Kevin, and Randy's 14 year old son
    Sam, grabbed their guns and followed the dogs to investigate.

    When the government agents were confronted with the barking dog, they did
    what men who have been taught to kill do. They shot Striker. The boy,
    barely larger than a 10 year old child, heard the dog's yelp, saw the dog
    fall dead. and as a 14 year old might, he returned the fire. Then the
    government agents shot the child in the arm. He turned and ran. the arm
    flopping, and when he did, the officers, still unidentified as such, shot
    the child in the back and killed him.

    Kevin Harris witnessed the shooting of the dog. Then he saw Sam being shot
    as the boy turned and ran. To Kevin there was no alternative. He knew if he
    ran these intruders, whoever they were, would kill him as well. In defense
    of himself he raised his rifle and shot in the direction of the officer who
    had shot and killed the boy. Then while the agents were in disarray, Kevin
    retreated to the Weaver cabin.

    In the meantime Randy Weaver had been off in another direction and had only
    heard the shooting, the dog's yelp and the gunfire that followed. Randy
    hollered for his son and shot his shotgun into the air to attract the boy.

    "Come on home Sam, Come home."

    Over and over he called.

    Finally he heard the boy call back "I'm comin' Dad". Those were the last
    words he ever heard from his son.

    Later that same day, Randy, Kevin, and Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife went down
    to where the boy lay and carried his body back to an outbuilding near the
    cabin. There they removed the child's clothing and bathed his wounds and
    prepared the body. The next evening Weaver's oldest daughter, Sarah,
    sixteen, Kevin, and Randy went back to the shed to have a last look at Sam.
    When they did, government snipers opened fire. Randy was hit in the
    shoulder. The three turned and ran for the house where Vicki, with her 10
    month old baby in her arms stood holding the door open. As the 3 entered
    the house Vicki was shot and slowly fell to her knees, her head resting on
    the floor like one kneeling in prayer. Randy ran up and took the baby that
    she clutched, and then he lifted his wife's head. Half her face was blown
    away.

    Kevin was also hit. Huge areas of muscle in his arm were blown out, and his
    lung was punctured in several places. Randy and his 16 year old daughter
    stretched the dead mother on the floor of the cabin and covered he with a
    blanket where she remained for over 8 days as the siege progressed.

    By this time there were officers by the score, troops, armored personnel
    carriers, helicopters, radios, televisions, robots, and untold armaments
    surrounding the little house. I will not burden you with the misery and
    horror the family suffered in this stand-off. I will tell you that finally
    Bo Gritz, Randy's former commander in the special forces, came to help in
    the negotiations. Gritz told Randy that if he would surrender, Gritz would
    guarantee him a fair trial, and before the negotiations were ended, Randy
    came to the belief that I would represent him. Although Gritz had contacted
    me before I had spoke to Randy, I had only agreed to talk to Randy. But the
    accuracy of what was said between Gritz and me and what was hard by Randy
    somehow got lost in the horror, and Randy's belief that I would represent
    him if he surrendered was in part, his motivation for finally submitting to
    arrest.

    And so my friend Allan, you can now understand the pain I feel in this
    case. It is pain that comes from the realization that we have permitted a
    government to act in our name and in our behalf in a criminal fashion. It
    is the pain of watching the government as it now attempts to lie about its
    criminal complicity in this affair and to cover its crimes by charging
    Randy with crimes he did not commit, including murder. It is the pain of
    seeing an innocent woman with a child in her arms murdered and innocent
    children subjected to these atrocities. Indeed, as a human being I feel
    Randy's irrepressible pain and horror and grief.

    I also feel your pain, my friend. Yet I know that in the end, if you were
    the judge at the trial of Adolph Eichmann, you would have insisted that he
    not have ordinary council, but the best council. In the same way, if you
    were the judge in Randy's case, and you had a choice, I have no doubt that
    despite your own pain you might well have appointed me to defend him. In
    the end you must know that the Holocaust must never stand for part
    justice,or average justice but for the most noble of ideals--that even the
    enemies of the Jews themselves must receive the best justice the system can
    provide. If it were otherwise the meaning of the Holocaust would be
    accordingly besmirched.

    Alan, I agree with your arguments. They are proper and they are true. I
    agree that my defense of Randy Weaver may attach a legitimacy and dignity
    to his politics and religion. But it may, as well, stand for the
    proposition that there are those who don't condone this kind of criminal
    action by our government. I view the defense of Randy Waver's case as an
    opportunity to address a more vital issue, one that transcends a white
    separatist movement or notions of the supremacy of one race over another,
    for the ultimate enemy of any people is not the angry hate groups that
    fester within, but a government itself that has lost its respect for the
    individual. The ultimate enemy of democracy is not the drug dealer or the
    crooked politician or the crazed skinhead. The ultimate enemy is the new
    king that has become so powerful it can murder its own citizens with
    impunity.
    To the same extent that Randy Weaver cannot find justice in this country,
    we too will be deprived of justice. At last, my defense of Randy Weaver is
    a defense of every Jew and every Gentile, for every black and every gay who
    loves freedom and deplores tyranny.

    Although I understand that it will be easy for my defense of Randy Weaver
    to be confused with an endorsement of the politics of the Aryan Nation, my
    challenge will be to demonstrate that we can still be a nation where the
    rights of the individual, despite his race, color, religion, remain
    supreme. If this be not so, then we are all lost. If this is not so, it is
    because we have forgotten the lessons of our histories--the history of the
    American Revolution as well as the history of the Holocaust.

    And so my friend Allan, If I were to withdraw from the defense of Randy
    Weaver as you request, I would be required to abandon my belief that this
    system has any remaining virtue. I would be more at fault than the federal
    government that has murdered these people, for I have not been trained to
    murder but to defend. I would be less of a man than my client who had the
    courage of his convictions. I would lose all respect for myself. I would be
    unable to any longer be your friend, for friendship must always have its
    foundation in respect. Therefore as my friend, I ask that you not require
    this of me. I ask instead for your prayers, your understanding and your
    continued love.

    As ever,

    Gerry Spence
    Jackson Hole, Wyoming
     
  2. El Guzano

    El Guzano Banned

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    "Randy Weaver's principal crime against the government had been his failure
    to appear in court on a charge of possessing illegal firearms. The first
    crime was not his. He had been entrapped--intentionally, systematically,
    patiently, purposefully entrapped--by a federal agent who solicited him to
    cut off, contrary to Federal law, the barrels of a couple of shotguns.
    Randy Weaver never owned an illegal weapon in his life. He was not engaged
    in the manufacture of illegal weapons. The idea of selling an illegal
    firearm had never entered his mind until the government agent suggested it
    and encouraged him to act illegally. The government knew he needed the
    money. He is as poor as an empty cupboard. He had three daughters, a son
    and a wife to support. He lived in a small house in the woods without
    electricity or running water. Although he is a small, frail man, with tiny,
    delicate hands who probably weighs no more than a hundred and twenty
    pounds, he made an honest living by chopping firewood and by seasonal work
    as a logger.

    This man is wrong, his beliefs are wrong. His relationship to mankind is
    wrong. He was perhaps legally wrong when he failed to appear and defend
    himself in court. But the first wrong was not his. Nor was the first wrong
    the government's. The first wrong was ours."
     
  3. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

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    Isn't Quotations from Mao Tse-Tung the greatest selling book of all time?
     
  4. Treymayne

    Treymayne Member

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    I suspect that the answer is yes America is degenrating into more of a police state however you may get alot of debate and opposing views on how and what is causing it. Even amongst people that basically agree that it is happening.
     
  5. Inquiring-Mind

    Inquiring-Mind Senior Member

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  6. ~MorningManiacMusic~

    ~MorningManiacMusic~ Banned

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  7. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

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  8. Lodui

    Lodui One Man Orgy

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    He's real, he's just paranoid, and offensivly ignorant.


    He's supporting the 2008 presidential campaign of a man who claims to be god.

    He claims that RFID will be/is used to monitor us every where you go, which is not how RFID works. He's also claimed there were no planes on 9/11.
     
  9. ~MorningManiacMusic~

    ~MorningManiacMusic~ Banned

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    And where did you hear this?:H

    He never said there were no planes involved in 9/11....I think what he said was that there is no way that an airplane could have brought the building down.
    My friend has this video that shows explosions going off as the bulding is crumbling.I think it was rigged

    How come the the government has changed so much right after 9/11 then?

    They want us to give up our Freedom for Security...And well I say FUCK THAT!!!:mad:
     
  10. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    So, who here voted for tax cuts and budget cuts. The original complaint sounds like we have an overstaffed, overfunded, overmandated buracracy.

    I'd like a little of my witholding tax back since no one is serious about controlling spending. No one wants to grapple with saving social security.

    Starve the bastards, vote more and more tax cuts!
     
  11. makno

    makno Senior Member

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    id say it happened very quickly and continues to, get worse .
     
  12. SLOTH

    SLOTH Member

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    Sloth Outta Here!
     
  13. ~MorningManiacMusic~

    ~MorningManiacMusic~ Banned

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  14. Zer0_II

    Zer0_II Member

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    Well, people are already buying the "war = peace" thing so....
     
  15. ~MorningManiacMusic~

    ~MorningManiacMusic~ Banned

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    Yeah now any crime is considered "Domestic Terrorism" and they can take you away.

    It's all in the "patriot act"
     
  16. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    i'd say we're no more then two steps and a banana peal away from being there already. the only thing missing is crystal nockt and domestic concentration camps (and we've got extrodinary rendition as a substitute for that). but i don't think it's going to last any longer then hitler's 'thousand year rich' did.

    sooner or later the oil's going to run out and the dollar is going to collapse, and sooner rather then later the more of this nonsense goes on.

    right now we've got only the bullying of the most powerful army on earth backing up the debased dollar, but our productivity has all been shipped offshore. to students of real history this ought to be ringing some pretty obvious bells.

    on the other hand we could step back from that brink and i hope and prey that we do.

    if america forces the rest of the world to unite against it in order to defend itself it will

    and it will succeed in doing so because it will outproduce america, the way 70 years ago america outproduced hitler.

    at any rate a day will also come, whether it takes six years or twenty, when all these terrible events will finaly have become well and thoroughly consigned to the dusty shelves of history.

    =^^=
    .../\...
     
  17. Patience

    Patience Member

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    I think that the USA is not a complete police state right now, but if the conservatives stayed in the white house for some other 10 years, it would be a police state and may need a revolution to return to its past again!
     
  18. Nalencer

    Nalencer Dig Yourself

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    America already has domestic concentration camps. There are one or two compounds in each state, surrounded by razor-wire and employing full time armed guards. But they're totally empty. They're to be used by FEMA to hold "terrorists", which are basically anyone who stands up for their inalienable rights.

    http://abovetopsecret.com/pages/camps.html


    A bit more about FEMA here. If you read nothing else in the article, you MUST scroll down slightly to the list of executive orders. This is a list of FEMA's powers should the president declare a state of emergency. These are not plans or specultions; they are actually written in law. The president says the word and they can do it.

    http://abovetopsecret.com/pages/fema.html


    The worst part is that this fascist state is planned for the whole world, not just the US. Past examples of fascism and how it was defeated were obviously manipulated by the elites, those who control everything in the world. All corporations, nations, and organizations of any consequence are directly controlled, or can be directly controlled if necessary, but these elites. So how fascism was defeate din Germany doesn't help us much. However, it does help immensely in recognizing the beast. I can only imagine what it would have been like back then, the people not having something like that to refer back to in comparison.

    If you're new to this information, here are a few links to get you started. On the first one use your judgment, as I can't gurantee the quality of all the info. The second two are, however, run by people who know the score, and their information can be trusted.

    http://abovetopsecret.com
    http://davidicke.com
    http://earthrainbownetwork.com

    Contact me for more info. This needs to get out.
     

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