How To Argue For Gun Control.

The VA is ran by the government as well as the Canadian healthcare system. Yet when given the choice, people choose private health care.

Actually it doesn't work.

http://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/nhs-does-not-work-and-needs-overhaul-says-leading-medic-11364067840267

 

Again, you imply that suicide by gun is such a huge problem that nothing can even come close. I'm saying that it's only by 3% and that could change depending on circumstances. When Australia had their mandatory buy back, their suicide stayed the same rate.

 

No. I'm saying that they held their own and would've done it for awhile until they received help.

I'm just quoting Wikipedia.

 

Most likely not, but like I said, standing for what's right is far more important than whether or not you have allies. Also when you're dealing with something as ingrained in the American culture as firearms, any overt effort to restrict gun rights will be met with great resistance. Their are currently at least 80 million gun owners and over 400 million firearms in the US. And currently gun laws are getting more and more lax. So support for the second amendment is strong.

Again, what does that half to do with resisting tyranny? If I'm the only one left I'll still resist.

No. Your point?

 

To which I agree. That's why I support gun right advocates to hinder bad things from happening as long as possible.

I never said they should get help. I said I shouldn't be forced to help.

Since we're on this topic, since you don't believe in God, what's so wrong about social evolution?

 

Mac

LOL – but we have been through that, why just bring up stuff we have already covered?

I mean you have even admitted that many of the suggestions haven’t been tried in the US and none in a consistent national way – and asked about that you just repeat that they are unconstitutional or unworkable or whatever – yes man we already know you are against any prudent gun control and haven’t really got any real counter arguments or rational solutions, just making that obvious over and over doesn’t help your side in this debate.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/home-office

 

Mac

OK – so you now realize the Great Depression doesn’t back up what you were saying. If you want I can suggest some books that could expand your knowledge.
Any so you go back to something we have already covered at some length.
https://en.m.wikiped...uses_of_poverty
[SIZE=11pt]The causes of poverty include not changing trends in a country’s economy, lack of education, high divorce rate which causes feminization of poverty, having a culture of poverty, overpopulation, epidemic diseases such as AIDS and malaria and environmental problems such as lack of rainfall. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]In Calafornia reduced poverty in the elderly with the creation of the social security program Almost 50 percent of people in the world today live on less than $2.50 per day[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]The poverty rate among seniors in the United States is at 9 percent as of 2010 In 1960 the official poverty rate among the elderly was 35 percent The Netherlands offers a universal pension and leads the world with a 1.7 percent poverty rate among the elderly[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] Extreme poverty may affect the lifespan and the lack of money via some type of pension system increases the poverty rate among the elderly worldwide Issues like hunger, illness and thirst are both causes and effects of poverty.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Extreme weather may be a cause of poverty in many countries. Drought, rainfall and flooding are some of the biggest causes of poverty by weather. When natural disasters do not gain media attention raising money becomes more difficult. This is made worse when governments spend money in the capitals instead of the poorest areas which need it most[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Tony Blair in a BBC discussion states that the cause of poverty is inequality of opportunity. [/SIZE]

As I’ve said you’ve brought up the issue of single parentage before in relation to supposed increase in violence - we looked into it and it didn’t stand up.

Percentage of single parent

• The United States: 25%
• Ireland: 24%
• Canada: 22%
• The United Kingdom: 22%

Homicides by any method per 100.000

• US - 2011: 5.1
• England and Wales - 1.03
• Ireland – 1.1
• Canada 1.7

*
many single parents were once married but have divorced I can’t see forcing people together when they want to split is a great solution and I’m sure you are not arguing for the forceful removal children, so it would seem to me that the best way would be to try and help the single parent.

What I would suggest is needed would be a good well funded social services system, welfare, public housing, universal public healthcare, training programmes, a full employment economic model and cheap or free childcare for the large numbers that work.

*

Your solution - was to hope that they would follow your god.

Again it’s not a rational or reasonable idea.

 

Mac

Re: NHS

LOL – oh and yet again we have been through this – as I pointed out there are many views on the NHS often dictated by political bias. The right wing press in the UK are aways targeting for criticism YET it is still very popular in the UK and during the Brexit debate one of the things the leavers big arguments was that if we left the EU the money set to it would go to the NHS (something the admitted later was a lie).

Most of the problems it is experiencing at the moment are due to right leaning politicians trying to make this public service run like a ‘free market’ entity with competition, PPI deals and targets that have put huge strain on the system.

[SIZE=11pt]The NHS has been declared the best healthcare system by an international panel of experts who rated its care superior to countries which spend far more on health.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The same study also castigated healthcare provision in the US as the worst of the 11 countries it looked at. Despite putting the most money into health, America denies care to many patients in need because they do not have health insurance and is also the poorest at saving the lives of people who fall ill, it found.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]The report has been produced by the Commonwealth Fund, a Washington-based foundation which is respected around the world for its analysis of the performance of different countries' health systems. It examined an array of evidence about performance in 11 countries, including detailed data from patients, doctors and the World Health Organisation.[/SIZE]
Guardian

 

Mac

What is by 3% - I’m still not sue you understand and don’t seem able to explain.

[SIZE=11pt]Guns are not the most common means of suicide attempt, but they result in more deaths than every other method combined.[/SIZE]

 

Mac

I think you need to read some histories of WWII

Yes there really are some good books out there – I can even suggest some

 

Mac

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

I’m not sure I can make it any more simpler – I mean Niemoller’s words are usually seen as one of the great warnings about the rise of tyranny.

 

Mac


Again your reply makes me think you don’t understand what I’ve said.


The point is that it is a lot better to work toward stopping bad things from happening that doing little (or even supporting) stuff that ends up biting you in the face.
To which I agree. That's why I support gun right advocates to hinder bad things from happening as long as possible.

Again I think you don’t understand –
did the Native Americans that fought back against the treaty breaking US government get the support of the American citizenry? What if the US citizens of Japanese decent had resisted the unconstitutional internment imposed on them after Pearl Harbour and had shot at the police; do you think they would have got general and popular support? What about those hauled in front of McCarthy or the un-American committees, would Americans have rallied to them if they had refused to go before such witch hunts and opened fire on those that came to take them?

It’s hard to explain it more simplistically - If you don’t step in to stop the suffering of others (possibly because you support it or just don’t care) then it’s too late.

 

Mac

There is a lot of bigotry and nastiness going on in US society and if not countered these can fester and grow – lets us take one thing as an example as we have been looking at it – the idea that most people who are disadvantaged are disadvantaged because they deserve to be disadvantaged and so should be give little or no help, so they should not get public assistance in healthcare or welfare.

Yes I understand you want the right to not help people that you have already indicated that you don’t think should be helped because you believe they deserve to be disadvantaged.

We have been through that –

Is it justified for the person born into advantage to retain exclusive rights to advantages it didn’t deserve rather than share them with others who through no blame of their own are disadvantaged.

You didn’t seem to have a rational or reasonable reply to that.

 

Mac

There are even many on the right that support to one degree or another the Social Darwinism of Herbert Spencer

LOL – I don’t believe in any gods, I mean yours is just one of many that have been invented by humans.

Have you actually read about or studied Social Darwinism? It is referred to as a pseudo-science (it ties to pretend to be scientifically based but isn’t) - fake science.

I can suggest some books if you wish?

 

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/arlington/2017/05/03/two-people-killed-third-wounded-arlington-restaurant-shooting-reports-say
This permitted gun owner swooped in before the nice talkers could convince the crazy to put his arms down.
"More than a dozen customers and a handful of employees were in the sports bar at the time of the shooting.
"Cook said the customer, who was dining with his wife, "prevented further loss of life."

 

A few reasons why people shot people in March 2017

My wife left me and started dating a man half my age, so I shot her and her new boyfriend dead. (TX, 3/2)


Some guy honked at me when I ran a stop sign, so I shot him in the face. (FL, 3/3)


I was too drunk to drive, so I got an Uber. In the back seat, I moved my legally-concealed handgun from one pocket to another and it went off. I shot my driver in the back but he was really nice about it. Five stars. (PA, 3/5)


My dad caught me doing some stuff on my computer so he took it away. I was really mad, so I shot him and I also shot his roommate’s girlfriend, because she happened to be there at the time. (OR, 3/8)


My wife moved out so I shot our two daughters dead and then shot my wife in the legs and told her I want her to live so she can suffer with the grief. I had permits for my guns. (IL, 3/10)


I asked my mom to go get me some doughnuts. She said no, so I shot her boyfriend in the face. I also shot one of the cops who responded. And I fired about 30 rounds randomly around my neighborhood. (FL, 3/15)


We were arguing and we both had guns so we both felt threatened so we both shot each other. (TN, 3/25)

 

Lots of crazies to protect yourself from.

 

What is more rational to allow ease of access to the criminal and irresponsible (as well as the ‘crazies’) to guns or to try and lessen harm by limiting the possibility of the criminal and irresponsible (and ‘crazies’) getting hold of a gun?

 

Your measures have been implemented nationally in other countries and failed. What makes you think that it'll work here in the US?

That's the home page. Do you have a link to the article you quoted?

 

I said divorce rates is one of the causes of poverty, not crime.