How To Argue For Gun Control.

It's Christian for me to willingly give to you. It's not Christian to raid your house and force you to pay for him. That's the difference. Jesus said to give to the poor, he didn't threaten people and forced them to give.

No I don't.

No, I want people to be responsible of their own actions. I'm more than willing to pay for you if I'm able. However I don't want to be forced.

Projecting.

Lying and misconstruing your opponent's argument is also unchristian. So stop it.

 

"You" in the general sense.

No, but they also don't deserve my hard earned money. No one "deserves" compassion and mercy. Those things are gifts given out of your heart.

Actually some are. However most are disadvantaged because of their life chioces that could've been prevented. No one taking their first drink thought it would be cool to become an alcoholic with no job security and risk DUI. No one placing their first bet thought it'll be cool to become buried in debt and have to look over your shoulder for people hounding you down.

No, but his parents could've prevented the situation altogether had they made right chioces.

Well, yeah if its something that's of no fault of the contractees and killing them off. However, like I said, 70% of all health care claims are self induced. If the deseases could be easily prevented then theirs really no need for the government to step in.

And again, the parents were the ones that created their own situation most of the time.

They wouldn't be affected because they made good life chioces. Like getting/staying out of debt.

Glad to see you stopped playing your violin of emotion. Now can you use logic next time?

 

Then here you go.

http://www.healthpaconline.net/health-care-issues.htm

https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/universal-health-care-wont-work-witness-medicare

http://www.gallup.com/poll/161615/preventable-chronic-conditions-plague-medicaid-population.aspx

Great. As long as I'm not forced to pay for those who participate in those things I'm all for programs that raise awareness of health issues.

No.

And that's where I stop agreeing. I don't want to be forced to pay for someone else's bad life chioces. If we had universal car care or house care would people take care of their cars and homes? Ever rented out a house? It's the exact same mentality. You pay for their mistakes.

Like I said, I don't want to be forced to pay for other people's life chioces.

 

When did I used feelings?

General crime and violent crime are two different things. Not only that but you're looking at a country that's 5,000 miles accross with 50 different laws of gun ownership. Don't you think that to say gun control don't work because of the national rate is a little broad? Where is the violent crime coming from? Democratically controlled states and cities.

States with more gun ownership has less violent crime than those with strict gun ownership as a general rule.

 

Blacks are the ones who commit 50% of violent crime. They also populate the urban cities.

What?

No I'm not. Blacks make up most of the fatherless homes and that's a strong contributor to violent crime.

 

Mac

Can a baby be responsible for being born into disadvantage?

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Can a child choose to not to be born into disadvantage and therefore not be burdened with the problems being disadvantaged can bring?

So a child can choose to be born to parents that have made the right choices?

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Now let’s say that half a population are born into disadvantage and half not. But since no one can choose beforehand to which half they are to be born, it basically means disadvantage could affect anyone. So again it is a societal problem.

So again you think babies can choose who their parents are going to be?

 

Mac

But you will only pay for those that you think are deserving of help and you do seem to have a long list of those that you don’t think are deserving which I suppose would be very convenient for your bank balance.

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So people deserve to be disadvantaged?

Yes I’m sure you wouldn’t care if the adulterer were stoned, I mean she choose to commit adultery and that traveler to Jericho, well if he wasn’t strong enough or clever enough not to get mugged then why should you help especially since it might mean spending some of your hard earned cash.

I think we have the measure of what type of ‘christian’ you are.

 

Mac

But debt is often part of life, especially in a capitalist based society.

For example having a mortgage is a debt getting a loan to go to college is a debt or one to start up a business is a debt. And these are often seen as beneficial to individuals and society.

But yes these can go wrong for example circumstances can change let’s say the factory is closed down and jobs are hard to come by, and mortgage payments are not made, does the person that took out the mortgage deserve to be made homeless and given no help?

And business people or speculators that bet others money on often on risky deals are often admired in a capitalist society even when their ‘deals’ fall through and have adverse effects (think of the financial crash) I mean let’s say someone goes bankrupt (often protecting themselves but hurting many down the chain) and these people often receive tax right offs which are another form of public assistance.

 

Mac

It seems to me that you seem to be trying to claim that the vast majority of those seeking public assistance are somehow wasters who is deserving of everything that has happened to them and so is undeserving of help.

This is the old con of the deserving and undeserving poor that has served the self interest of the advantaged for generations.

The con goes like this - the deserving are those that don’t ask for help and so don’t need any. And the undeserving are those who do ask for help thereby showing that they are scroungers and wasters who don’t deserve any help.

So it was plain - the argument goes – that there is no need to give assistance to the disadvantaged and why welfare systems etc are not needed or should be cut in favour of tax cuts which would allow then to keep more of their ‘hard earned’ money.

The problem is that these deserving and undeserving people were often the same people but just at different stages of life or circumstance.

Few people’s lives are unchanging and many might need help from time to time.
Now many on the right, like yourself, also promote the con but they word it in terms of personal responsibility they say - if people are responsible and make “better decisions” and ‘good choices’ then they will not need assistance but those that seek help must have been irresponsible and made “poor decisions” and taken the ‘wrong choices’ and so don’t deserve assistance.

[SIZE=11pt]But as said the problem is that an individual cannot always be in personal control of circumstance, and at the very fundamental level the view of personal responsibility falls down since no one can choose to whom they are born and that is one of, if not the biggest thing to impact a person’s life. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]I’m sure if people could choose they’d want to be born into wealth or at least comfort rather than into disadvantage or abject poverty. For one it would likely lead to a happier and healthier life but the opportunities to fulfill your potential would be far greater. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]In an unequal system there cannot be equality of opportunity the more unequal a society the more difficult it can be for the disadvantaged to fulfil their potential and rise in social standing (what is referred to a Social Mobility).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]For a lot of people they are in the position they are because of lack of opportunity rather than lack of potential. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Also as well as giving greater opportunities advantage can also allow greater levels of irresponsibility or the making of bad decisions, advantage can cushion individuals and institutions from the effects of ‘bad choices’.[/SIZE]

 

Mac
I can find no information to back up that claim.

http://www.healthpac...care-issues.htm

Does not back up your claim however it does say - “Studies show that uninsured children are more likely to be sick, miss more school days, and perform more poorly in school than children with insurance. Many children suffer from asthma and cannot afford the treatment that will benefit their health and education. Many children cannot afford the recommended immunizations. Many children get ear infections that are not treated, leading to hearing loss.”
https://www.cato.org...itness-medicare

Again does not back up your claim.

http://www.gallup.co...population.aspx

Again does not back up your claim the study is on medicaid not all health care claims and it says as I’ve noted that prevention would be good.

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Actually the NHS is considered one of the most efficient and rather ‘affordable’ healthcare systems in the world.

Most hospital stays in the UK are a result of aging (pneumonia being a big one); I suppose they could choose not to grow old

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NHS data has revealed that the over 60s had the most hospital stays of any age group in 2009/10, more than three times as many stays than among the under 14s.

We pay for the NHS through a national insurance scheme, and well in a way we do the same for homes and cars.

To get a mortgage you will need building insurance and of course taxes pay for the ‘insurance’ of the fire and police services that are charged with protecting property as well as lives. Similar with cars you have to have insurance to drive legally on the road, you can be fined or banned from driving if you don’t have it (I believe many states in the US have something similar)

 

Mac

Yes but you still seem to be saying that widespread gun ownership has had no real impact on general crime in the US other than leading to a much higher gun related death rates than other developed countries.

Hell man you know we have been through that – and that you view is disputed –

Study: States with more gun laws have less gun violence
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/07/gun-violence-study-chicago/1969227/

 

Mac

And….?

What’s your point?

Ok we have been through this – if single parentage is an indicator or crime especially violent crime and murder then places like Ireland and the UK should have US levels of murder for example and they don’t (see figures above).

So your argument doesn’t seem to stand up.

Of course the people of Ireland and the UK have alot less access to guns.

Anyway why do you think blacks make up most of the fatherless homes and what rational ways would you go about tackling that problem (not just hoping your god will fix things)?

 

No, which is why I'm placing blame on the parents.

See above.

Again, see above.

What caused half of the parents to be disadvatived to begin with? Had the parents made good decisions we wouldn't be having this conversation. Now as to helping those disadvantaged children the best way is through private organizations that have more of a feel of what that child needs.

Again, no.

 

That's freedom, baby. But on a serious note I can't give to everybody and neither can you. I'm willing to give to private organizations that help the poor in fact I do so every time I'm paid. My main and only contention is being forced by gunpoint to give to someone that (1) I don't have money for, (2) I believe the money would be spent better somewhere else, or (3) I don't agree with the cause I'm being forced to give.

As I said, I'm willing to give, I'm not willing to be forced. Lets say we passed by a Salvation Army ringer and you and I decided to give $5 each to him. I'm all for that. Now lets say I now pull out a gun and forced you to give your wallet to him. That's what I'm against.

We certainly have a measure of what type of debater you are. A non debater that misrepresents your opponent's argument.

 

Not gambling, and you'd be amazed on how much you can live off of without ever getting into debt. Besides, I said staying/getting out of debt. If you're already in debt then do your best to get out of it. You don't need a brand new car every two years. Get a used one that runs and drive it until its no longer fixable.

You can rent a house or place of business and there are ways of paying for college without getting a loan like payment programs and grants.

Like I said, you can avoid this entire problem. And I didn't said that homeless people won't get any help. What I said was that I wouldn't want to be forced to help them.

Again, there are ways to avoid this.

 

Medicaid is a form of health care and most of their claims are from obesity which is preventable.

That's within your country. We have different health issues.

Such as?

They are provided though by private companies like Progressive and State Farm. They are not government ran. The government mandates insurance and through supply and demand the private companies provides the service.

 

I'm saying that our violent crimes are low.

You twisted my words. I said "violent crime" while you post a link to gun violence. And for the record I'm right.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IUUIGf4ll4g

 

That is my point.

I'm not saying it is a single indicator. I'm saying its a main indicator.

 

How about this for an argument....

Here's the report. And this is not taking into account injuries or disabilities sustained from the injuries.

I think the greatest danger for the average American is not from terrorism or external wars, but from gun wielding Americans themselves.

This is not the case in other countries because of the stringent laws and regulations regarding possession of guns. Countries like Afghanistan and Somalia are exceptions though because of the primitive ideologies and law structure prevalent over there.

 

Mac



Can a baby be responsible for being born into disadvantage?

Can a baby choose to what parents it is to be born to?

Basically your statement makes no sense in your argument for personal responsibility since where and whom you are born is going to have probably the most influence on a person’s life and the possibility to fulfilling ones potential.

And if mechanisms are not in place to promote social mobility then it can be hard to escape from disadvantage.

Can a baby be responsible for being born into disadvantage?

Have people complete control over what happens in their lives?