How To Argue For Gun Control.

I asked YOU what was the root cause. Not what did I said was the root cause.

 

Some reasons why Americans used their guns December 2016

I tried to shoot myself but the gun jammed. My wife taunted me about it, so I shot her instead. (PA, 12/4)

I dropped my gun in the supermarket. It hit the floor and discharged, injuring an employee. But no charges were filed, since I have a concealed carry permit. (PA, 12/5)

I was fighting with my girlfriend, and my sister tried to intervene. So I shot her. (TX,12/8)

I narrowly avoided a fender-bender with a stranger in a parking lot, so I shot him. Did I mention I have a concealed carry permit? (TN, 12/7)

I didn’t like the way a woman was driving, so I shot at her car and killed her three-year-old grandson in the back seat. (AR, 12/18)

My nephews were fighting so I drew my gun to break it up. I didn’t intend to actually shoot anybody but, you know, stuff happens. (MS, 12/18)

A woman got her Jeep stuck in a ditch outside my home. Her passengers were trying to push the vehicle out, so I told them to get off my property and I shot them. (MN, 12/27)

I was serving myself a hotdog at a gas station and couldn’t find the buns. The guy behind me cut in line in front of me and showed me where the buns were, so I shot him. (GA, 12/29)

I bought a guy a beer at a bar, but then I changed my mind and took it back. He got mad, so I took his gun away from him and shot him with it. He died. (AR, 12/28)

 

Mac

And we have been through this before –

The problem I’m trying to highlight is that many of those opposing gun control don’t seem to have giving much thought to what may be the root cause of the problems within their society or how to tackle them beyond intimidation and threat.

I’ve made my own views plain over many years here, if you haven’t noticed them it indicates even more strongly than the other hints that you basically don’t read others post in any depth, and may be the reason you keep repeating stuff that’s already been covered.

 

Mac

I wasn’t I was pointing out that you seemed to be uninformed about a subject and suggested you do some further reading that might help with that.

Who are we?

So now you are saying the working class were exploited it just just my not that much can you explain why you think this and what you are basing it on?

 

Mac

We have been through all that a number of times – why do you keep doing this bringing up stuff over and over even though its already been covered and you’ve not been able to address the criticisms of your views?

Easy access to guns seems to account for the higher gun relayed homicide and injury rate in the US.

Homicides by any method per 100.000
US - 2011: 5.1
England and Wales - 1.03
France : 1.2
Germany 0.8
Gun related homicides per 100,000
US 2011: 3.6
England and Wales: 0.06
France - 0.22
Germany - 0.2

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Here is something I posted some time ago

I live in London it has a population of around 7.5 million and it only had 175 homicides between Apr-2005 to Apr-2006. In fact in 2009 there were only 651 murders in the whole of England and Wales with a population of around 60 million.

[SIZE=11pt]But let us take an American city - Philadelphia – it I believe has a population of around 6.1 million yet it had 406 homicides in that same year. So two Philadelphia’s with only 12.2 million people would create 812 murders, more than what is produced by 60 million Brits. [/SIZE]

 

Mac

LOL yes but you also thought you hadn’t mentioned bows before and you had so maybe you should check before claiming stuff.

Anyway I’ve looked and I don’t think you have but please I’d love to know what you think you have said - can you please cite it or link to it?

Oh not the car thing again, we have been through this like what a thousand times just in this one thread LOL, I mean you are not saying anything new and I put up the same criticism that you then ignore before repeating the car thing again…why do you do this?

OK cars were not designed to be weapons, they are not weapons, yes they can injure and kill people but that wasn’t the function they were built for.

A lot of time and energy has been spent by manufacturers and regulators to try and reduce the harm that comes from widespread car ownership.

Prudent gun control is about trying to reduce the harm that comes from easy access to guns.

Again we have been through this many times – I’m not saying we should ‘uninvent’ the gun or ban the law abiding from owning them, I just think it would be a good idea to try and limit harm by trying to lessen the possibility of guns falling into the hands of criminals and the irresponsible.

And I’m still unsure why you are opposed to that.

 

Mac

The first systematic, in-depth look at murder and suicide in the United States shows that personal conflicts are the major factor in such deaths, as opposed to random violence or other crime. Guns are the most commonly used weapons in both murders and suicides, according to the analysis of data from 2007 released on Thursday by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. - Reuters

And so we get the ‘Americans are more murderous’ argument again….Again man we have been through this numerous times.

The gun advocate Farago’s piece was interesting because he makes the claim that a majority of gun related homicides are gang related which doesn’t seem to be backed up by the cdc report he links to. Presumably you read the report as well and can tell me where the gang related information is? If not I’d have to say he was lying.

The article he mentions is much more interesting and thoughtful.

‘Gang-related’ classification for gun deaths a cop-out
http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/mitchell-gang-related-classification-for-gun-deaths-a-cop-out/

And I know you don’t like reading books that much but I’d recommend Gary Younge’s “Another Day in the Death of America: A Chronicle of Ten Short Lives.”
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Another-Day-Death-America-Chronicle/dp/1568589751
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/26/another-day-in-the-death-america-gary-younge-review

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https://www.ojjdp.gov/pubs/gun_violence/sect01.html

This seems to be something from 1996 which is a lot earlier than 2007

And if anything it seems to back up my arguments.

The firearm homicide rate for children under 15 years of age is 16 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

Among those ages 15 to 24, the U.S. firearm homicide rate is 5 times higher than in neighboring Canada and 30 times higher than in Japan, and the firearm homicide rate for the 15- to 24-year-old age group increased 158 percent during the 10-year period from 1984 to 1993 (see figure 4). This contrasts with a 19-percent decline in gun-related homicides for those 25 and older. A teenager in the United States today is more likely to die of a gunshot wound than from all the "natural" causes of death combined.4

Approximately 37,500 gun sales, including 17,800 handgun sales, are completed every day in the United States. The increasing number of gun owners has elevated the danger of guns being acquired illegally through robberies and burglaries. In 1994, more than a quarter-million households experienced the theft of one or more firearms; nearly 600,000 guns were stolen during these burglaries

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Now according to the National Gang Center - The most recent count in the 2012 NYGS finds that 2,363 homicides were determined to be gang-related nationally….the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports estimates that around 15,000 homicides occurred annually in the United States. Taken together, these findings suggest that gangs were involved in approximately 15 percent of all homicides.

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Anyway even though your contention that the majority of homicides and gun is homicides is gang related is wrong the fact of the matter is that deaths still occurred, the thing you seem to be suggesting is that nothing should be done to lessen those deaths because it might mean bring in prudent gun control, and you don’t want that.

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But let’s add a bit more context for the US -

More than 1,600 women were murdered by men in 2013 and the most common weapon used was a gun, according to the new Violence Policy Center (VPC) study When Men Murder Women: An Analysis of 2013 Homicide Data.

1,615 females were murdered by males in single victim/single offender incidents in 2013, at a rate of 1.09 per 100,000. The study found that nationwide, 94 percent of women killed by men were murdered by someone they knew. Of the victims who knew their offenders, 62 percent were wives or other intimate acquaintances of their killers.

The overwhelming majority of these homicides were not related to any other felony crime, such as rape or robbery. Nationwide, for homicides in which the circumstances could be identified, 85 percent of the homicides were not related to the commission of another felony. Most often, females were killed by males in the course of an argument between the victim and the offender.

 

Farm

A woman in a skin-tight stars and stripes top holding an assault rifle is your idea of gun control

Thank you that is exactly the kind of attitude that many opposed to prudent gun control seem to have - for them the preventable deaths of thousands of their fellow citizens is not really taken that seriously or can even be seen as funny, something to joke about.

That’s fine some people get off on that type of humour but to me it is just another displays of that disconnection between reality and myth.

 

For every one of those incidents I can post hundred where an armed robber was thwarted by an armed law abiding citizen. I fail to see your point.

 

You didn't answered the question. What do YOU think is the root cause?

 

Maybe because I have been addressing the criticism of my views and you're the one repeating yourself.

Correlation does not equal causation. Ever tried comparing those countries before any form of gun control?

Philadelphia isn't known for being the bastion of gun rights.

 

I'll finish the rest tomorrow or when I get the next notification.

 

That was a long time ago. I don't have a perfect memory.

Kinda hard to do now since we've strayed from what was originally discussed.

Irrelevant. Why does it matter what the purpose of an item is? Smoking kills far more people than guns and I'd argue that its designed to kill. Same with alcohol.

Same with guns. You don't have to worry about dropping one and having it going off. It's when you start proposing useless and unconstitutional regulations and measures is when I have a problem. Using the car analogy for example its been proven that the faster the cars goes the more fatal a car accident becomes. So why not we make it a national law that cars cannot go over 30 MPH? Why make cars capable of of going faster than 80 MPH (the fastest speed limit in the US)?

However what you proposed is neither prudent nor reduce gun deaths.

But the things you're proposing only harms the law abiding and does nothing to prevent the criminal element.

I'm still not sure why you think I'm against it.

Which you ignore the fact that they already had a low gun death rate to begin with.

I won't.

 

What I noticed is that you left out the fact that the vast majority of those homicides are committed by blacks who mostly populate the inner cities.

Yep.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1995/03/bg1026nbsp-the-real-root-causes-of-violent-crime

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Gang-Related-Offenses

As it turns out gangs attribute a third of gun related homicides in America. And while they only make up 13% of homocides nationwide, they make up 67% of homicides in the cities which they reside and the cities also make up most of the homicides in general.

Or you scanned read 52 pages and didn't find anything. Admittedly that's what I did and didn't find anything either.

The links didn't worked for me.

Where on earth did you get that from? What deep dark crack in the earth did you pulled that out of? I've specifically said that I do like reading. What I didn't liked was refuting a physical book on an online forum. What did you expected me to do? Come back two weeks from now and tell you chapter two, paragraph three, sentence four, line one is wrong because of XYZ? It's much easier for you to link to what you're talking about via an article and I can copy and paste it and/or provide my own sources refuting it.

And did you compare the stats before gun control was implemented in those countries?

And what's it like now since crime in general is decreasing?

I do want prudent gun control. Name one that will work with sources proving so.

And they were mostly black.

 

Mac

Ok so let’s get this straight you haven’t given much thought to the social and economic state of the country you live in or what to do to improve things – beyond that is hoping that your god will sort things out.

That’s not a good place to be. I mean this should be coming from you rather than having me trying to explain it do you – so again - what do YOU think are the root causes?

Maybe you should stop reading stuff like the Harbinger and try a some more source based history to give you a bit of background (I could recommend some) and for more contemporary events some more thoughtful newspapers and magazines (again I could recommend some).

 

Mac
We have been through all that a number of times – why do you keep doing this bringing up stuff over and over even though its already been covered and you’ve not been able to address the criticisms of your views?

LOL – ok I’ll repeat what I’ve said when you have tried this – tell me where you have supposedly ‘addressed’ a criticism in a rational and reasonable why and which itself stood up to scrutiny.

Again it is amazing just how blase you are about the huge numbers of people dying as I say you come across as just not caring but as you have said to you they are just statistically insignificant.

 

Mac

Anyway I’ve looked and I don’t think you have but please I’d love to know what you think you have said - can you please cite it or link to it?

Why is it hard to know? – I mean again its all written down above – and it’s in the theme of this thread – I can explain if that helps.

You have put forward the argument that basically anything is as efficient at killing as a gun, that a knife, bow or spoon (ok not the last) can kill someone as just as easily as a gun can. I’ve pointed out that statistically that isn’t the case that guns are much more effective and therefore much more likely to cause injury and death.

 

Mac

You mean you don’t?

In the UK there are speed limits laws for certain areas for example the speed limit is 70mph on a motorway where pedestrians and cyclists are not allowed, then go down depending on the type and quality of the road as well as the density of the population so that in many urban areas the limit is 20 miles an hour and in some places traffic calming measures reduce speeds even more especially around schools, care homes etc.

These measures have vastly reduced fatal car accidents in the UK.

 

Mac

OK so this is in connection to your ‘Americans are more murderous’ argument

Sorry but neither of the things you link to seem to back up what you’ve written.
Anyway -
Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.

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The first systematic, in-depth look at murder and suicide in the United States shows that personal conflicts are the major factor in such deaths,

More than 1,600 women were murdered by men in 2013 and the most common weapon used was a gun…

And they were mostly black.

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What you seem to be suggesting here is that you don’t think Americans as a group are more murderous but that Black Americans are more, that it is a racial thing?

And since a lot of your argument for being armed is that you could be attacked by murderous criminals what you seem to be saying is people should be in general more frightened of black people since they are ones that are more murderous?

 

So you don't have a solution. Noted.

 

Statistically insignificant in the same way 30,000 car deaths a year is too statistically insignificant to put a 30 MPH speed limit on freeways.

 

And I put forward that cars are on equal plain as guns if not more so since 60% of gun deaths are suicides which are unpreventable even if we ban every gun on earth. Yet for cars we don't put a 30 MPH speed limit on freeways to prevent future accidents. I've also put forward that smoking and drinking have killed even more people and smoking has NO benefits whatsoever and yet we don't ban those.