How do we know what is and isn't real?

Discussion in 'Existentialism' started by 60s-70s-80s, Feb 28, 2010.

  1. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

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    Mushrooms only provide a momentary relief, a glimpse. The foreign installation is still there, waiting for you to come down.

    All your numerology, bible stuff, musical connections, thats all the workings of the foreign installation, keeping us turning and twisting, regurgitating, ungulating.

    They feed off all extreme emotions. The highs and the lows. Ecstasy and sorrow. Elation and depression. Excitement and boredom

    You can't use intelligence or clever insight to get out of this cage. The lock is too strong.



    Practice mind of no mind and the middle way.
     
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  2. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    Stand at the Center
     
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  3. Gongshaman

    Gongshaman Modus Lascivious

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    As I was about to edit my last post my computer crashed., what do you know? an omen
     
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  4. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    It has been happening to me. I get to a point and nothing will enter it is like the statement was complete.
     
  5. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    pay attention to all the story lines, all that you hear will be urging you, that means in your home as well.
     
  6. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    I just gleaned that this is a metamorphosis just like if we were beginning to pupate. I always wondered what kind of evolutionary chain would account for the existence of metamorphic insects that are worm in one moment and butter fly in the next.
     
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  7. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Forty Six & 2 - Tool: http://youtu.be/Tja6_h4lT6A
     
  8. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    There is Descartes' First Principle, 'I think, therefore I am,' I think it should be followed by a Second Principle, I am here in time, therefore it is now.'

    The first principle, of course, implies that the only thing we can truly know to be true is that, I am because I think (i.e. I am conscious). The implication of the second one is that the only point in time that we can truly know to physically exist is the now. These two principles together reflect Kant's philosophy in regards to what is a priori---self awareness (I think), space (I am here), and time (it is now). Everything else belonging to objective reality is a posteriori. (a priori is that which requires no precedent, it comes before experience or knowledge, and does not require experience, knowledge, or any other precedent to perceive. a posteriori is the opposite. For example, every objective thing that we perceive as an existent is located in space and time. Space and time are therefore precedents or prerequisites for such things to exist.)

    This is the existential (or human experience) of the potential illusion of physical reality. It also philosophically leads to a holographic universe. Because if we conclude that only the briefest moment of Now exists, then now is defined by a single matrix of photons spread across the universe. This is because time takes place at the speed of light (hence it is a zero-time particle, and the only constant in the universe). A photon ahead of it is a moment into the past, a photon behind it is a moment into the future, and so forth.

    But if only the Now exists, then in terms of physicality those other photons do not exist. Consider this--this moment of Now is the same now cleat across the universe. 400 Million Light years away, there is a moment of Now at this same instant. 400 Million Light years away, a photon is being absorbed into a star. At the same time, there is a photon leaving that same star headed for earth. It is the same Now, but it will be 400 Million years before we would perceive that photon leaving that star at this moment. We can know that there is a photon starting out its 400 Million year journey, because we can see that star and assume that even though the light we are seeing is 400 million years old, it may still exist today. But there is no way to detect that photon that is leaving the star today. In fact, there is no way to detect that same photon even when it is only 3 feet away----we will not perceive it until it is absorbed into a photo-receptive cell within our eyes---until it is seen----therefore, until that moment it is in our future, imperceptible, and thus does not exist in a physical sense.

    It is a holograph because the light we see provides a 3-Dimensional view of reality around us. Anything we touch and hear is also a sensory awareness of the now, but these things too are, based on one of the latest theories in physics, the result of light, as all mass is created by light energy--what makes mass different than light itself, is the zero-point energy field which creates the inertia which gives mass its qualities (i.e. causes photons to manifest as physical particles.

    However this implies that anything outside of our now---such as a table 3 feet away from me, or my computer existing as everything beyond the touch of my fingers on the keyboard does not exist as I see it---because that table and that computer are not the photons being absorbed in my eyes at that moment of Now, nor the mass of the keys I feel on my fingertips at that same moment of now. The photons leaving that table and this computer are moments into my future and therefore I cannot know that they exist because only the Now exists.

    What would they be in such a holographic universe? They would be Kant's ding an sich (the thing in itself), the thing qua thing----they would exist as form, as described by Plato and Aristotle, and almost every other philosopher until a century or two ago. They only manifest as mass in the actual Now---which is when we perceive it as mass. Kant would explain that we could never see the actual thing in itself---we can only see what we perceive in our own minds.

    Is this how reality really is, it's hard to say----but in the purely physical sense---we can only know that I think therefore I am, and that only the Now truly exists.
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The Now can not exist independently of the other two time periods, Past and Future, as we cannot comprehend the Now moment unless we reflect on the Past and the Future.

    In order for reflection to take place there must a conscious entity that is capable of reflection itself. But as reflection cannot occur without consciousness, it too is dependent and so has no inherent existence. Likewise for consciousness which must have its existence established by the act of reflection.

    As reflection always, and only, occurs in the Now moment; all three, The Now moment, Reflection, and Consciousness, have no inherent existence but arise together.
    However, this arising itself cannot be said to occur as the act of arising must take place in Time which can only be said to exist by Conscious Reflection in the Now Moment.
     
  10. Tyrsonswood

    Tyrsonswood Senior Moment Lifetime Supporter

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    By the time one realizes it's "now" it has already passed.
     
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  11. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    You are claiming dualism...

     
  12. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    That is very true---but this is because time is also a construct of consciousness, because consciousness is transcendent of the now. But then again maybe the past and future do physically exist----we just have no way of knowing if it does.


    This is another aspect of mind being transcendent of time, or the now---we always experience it a moment after it is past. The implication here is that if only the Now exists---then cosciousness itself is just as nonphysical and out of time as light and form.
     
  13. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    An integration of the environmental cues by the brain, followed by the subsequent responsive formulation of thought or moreover, action of speaking or typing, can also explain the staggered experience of the now being thought of residing in the past.
     
  14. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    Yes--the moment of Now would be so short that the time it takes (or should I say the new moments of Now) for our brain to receive the sensory stimulus of now means that it will always experience the past.
     
  15. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Yes time is a construct of Consciousness. But that is not to say that something is not occurring beyond the realm of time.

    The Past, Now, and the Future do exist physically, as that is how the physical manifests.
    But we do know (thanks to Einstein) that the physical, and time are all relative to each other based upon the speed that they are traveling in relation to each other. Which is to say that speed itself is relative and related to the individual consciousness that apprehends it and its locality.

    So individual consciousness is a local event which is manifest when Ultimate consciousness reflects on itself. So I'm thinking that Ultimately Consciousness exists, but Local Consciousness relies on relative time/space/matter.

    In other words, my conscious past can be your conscious present, and another's conscious future due to relativity.
    And as guerillabedlam points out we have the response time of the nervous system to consider.

    As in your example, depending on which way I face, away from the direction of a reflected light source or toward it, I will experience the apprehension of an object (by sight) at a different time.

    So, speculatively speaking, I would think that Ultimately Consciousness is also known as the Speed of Light. (Until it descends into the realm of Relativity).

    Does that makes sense?
     
  16. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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    Kind of...

    If I understand you correctly, Ultimate Consciousness is not bound by time, time is a construction and constriction of individual consciousness. That makes sense when describing conscious beings, however what happens when we consider space rocks, debris, inanimate objects and other celestial phenomena that does not appear to be conscious, yet is still bound by time?


    Eventhough it is relative, time appears like an actuality to me for everything moving slower than the speed of light. I'm not sure if that is entirely satisfactory for many but if you look at nature, it's pretty impressive how different organisms utilize relative time. I.E. For the 2 years that spiders live, they seem to do what they can with it such as building complex webs and what not, and for an animal that sleeps up to 3/4 of it's day, cats have been pretty successful. Of course we have done well as a species too and I think it's no coincidence that the significant strides in many scientific and technological fields came about as life spans got extended.
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Yes, I have thought about fossils, rocks, etc.
    If we consider a rock situated somewhere in space. Its age, and the rate of its aging will still be bound by the relative speed of the observer in relation to the rock, or one rock in relation to another.

    If we think of Einstein's Twin Paradox, two twins will age differently relative to each other if one is traveling at an extreme rate in relation to the other.
    If we give each twin an identical rock, the rocks will be found to age at different rates just as the twins do. They don't have to be conscious.
    The same would hold for two rocks, minus the twins. If one travels at an extreme rate in relation to the other, it will age at a different rate. (It will also change size relative to its twin).

    But, the difference will make no difference to the rocks, and will only become apparent upon observation.
    However, (thinking a little more) if we use identical atomically decaying isotopes instead of rocks, they will still age at a different rate, one will decay faster than the other so they may have different local influences on the local matter that is near them.
    So in that regard all matter, living and non living, is bound by time, as it needs space/time to exist. But the different rates of time passage might not be noticed until an observer is present even though it is still effecting individual elements of matter.
     
  18. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    no I'm not I'm claiming the communal elements of coming to know which are visible functions of the human being these things are not in opposition they cooperate with one another additionally I say that the human being has five senses which obviously observable that the five senses combined with the two communal elements of coming to know represent the entire experience of a human being
     
  19. guerillabedlam

    guerillabedlam _|=|-|=|_

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  20. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    It's best if you don't think about it. =]
     

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