How can god not exist?

Okay. You have demonstrated that reason plays a role in art. But how big a role? What about the creative will?

So then why have so much faith in it?

Well, it certainly means something, even if it doesn't signify a concrete particular.

I wouldn't rank armoured divisions and tactical air power at the top of my list of greatest human accomplishments, but certainly reason has got us very far. I'm not questioning that. What I am questioning is whether reason can be used to understand everything, or if the capabilities of reason are limitted.

But what if reason is not the appropriate way to do something? Then it wouldn't matter how much 'drive' we have.

But what's the point of living if there's no meaning in it? This is my point: reason cannot give our lives meaning, and knowing the truth does not necessarily make you a better person.

 

Our point of living is to carry on our genetics, just like every other thing on this planet...

Sheesh, us humans with our brain power really have a tendency to overcomplicate things...

 

I wouldn't rank armoured divisions and tactical air power at the top of my list of greatest human accomplishments

hammer

Really?
Time to beat you sensless,,,''


What IS an armoured div?
You and society are IGNORANT on this,,
You dont know what and armoured div is..
Unless you spend more than 2 minutes working on it
AN DAYS WORKING IT OUT.

tell occam what a mechanised division is.
with NO refference to the net.

You have no idea.


You suggest that life has no meaning unless meaning is attached from outside.
Yes it is...
but some fuckers got to it before you did..
And called it religion.

Now YOU call the truth religion...
Because you have no faith
In YOU

Occam

 

I sure hope you're wrong Sera, cuz that would be a huge let down for me personally. We are over 6 billion now, so I'd say we have been too successful at that. I really hope that our purpose here has some loving, compassionate, and protective aspect to it. I know that speaking up about the plight of the rest of earths creatures in one thing I feel compelled to do.

 

I agree, Occam, and hope I am mistaken in sensing you letting hammers queries frustrate you. If they have gotten you a little perturbed, I hope you feel better.
To me, life is and end unto itself. Just the experience is in its own right meaningful beyond any words, to me. I felt lucky to be here thirty years ago, and every day since has been a bonus. And that includes this last year, which has been the most difficult in my life, and more difficult than I ever thought life could get. Still, it is a gift to be cherished.

to me, we try our best, we remain thankful, respectful, and giving, and after that, just enjoy our brief sojourn, which will end far too soon.
I just have to laugh when I recall as a teen doubting I'd live past 20, due to how reckless I was. Here I am at 40, shaking my head in wonder, who would have guessed?

 

Isn't an armoured division a bunch of tanks?

Well, I'm not sure, but I'm going to guess that's a bunch of tanks too. But I don't see why your so hung up on this.

The meaning comes from yourself, that's the only place meaning can come from. I choose to believe in God, and that choice makes my life meaningful, not God. I could choose not to believe in God and to make my life meaningful in other ways, or I could choose to make my life have no meaning at all. But my choice to believe in God does not make my life any less meaningful than anyone else's, and vice versa. There is no wrong meaning because meaning has nothing to do with truth.

Occam, where have I ever called my religion the truth? You're putting words in my mouth. I've said that my religion is meaningful, but I've never even discussed truth in these posts. But I've been asking you a lot of question and, so far, you have replied to only a few of them. Why?

 

Blackguard

No, Hammer does not frustrate occam
Humanity does
[it drives him crazy..but also he accepts it...otherwise he would be crazy]

Yes. Life is US
WE..must work it out

Occam

 

Hammer

So let occam get this right

You have asked a lot of questions
No?

Please ask them again..occam is sorry if he missed them
And will do his best to answer.

And you choose to believe in god, which god?
ONE you SEE
Or one you have heard of?

If it is one you have heard of...who did you hear it from and were they god?
If they were not
Then what god do you believe in That exists

Occam can show you a mechanised division
An accelerated proton [lets go to cern in switzerland]
A fission reaction
gravity
Inertia
All the things that EXIST

Can you show occam your god?


Occam

 

Well, here's the most important one: How does knowing the truth make you a better person?

Both.

I heard from a lot of people, my parents, my priests, my dad's a church organist so I grew up with it.

No, because my context differs from yours. We see the world in two very different ways. And you are far too conditioned for this conversation to have a significant impact on how you interpret the signs around you. Of course, you still have the choice to interpret these signs in a way in which God will reveal Himself to you, but, at least for now, you are clearly not going to make that choice.

 

Hammer

Excelent

Please explain how occam is conditioned...
Do you mean conditioned differently to you?

Occam does not believe the words in THE book..
You do.
Yet he is conditioned?

You speak of significant impact...
That sounds a LOT like the talk of political spindoctors.
Is that you?

You imagine your god to exist...
Occam does not.
Occam thinks a 'direction' exists in reality...
A 'god' if you will...
But is not so arrogant as to imagine we know anything of such a being.
This is
Agnosticism

If you have sad feelings for occam and his false path,,
That is fine..

Occam believes implicitly that you have the right to believe anything you wish

Do you?

Occam

 

Everyone is conditioned; it's an inevitable consequence of being alive. Past experience, especially early childhood experience, play an important role in determining who we are. And yes, you are conditioned differently than me because your past experiences differ from mine.

Yes. Because you do believe the words in THE book, only your book is The Origin of Species, or the Principia, or Meditations on First Philosophy. Don't give yourself so much credit. Your ideas aren't your own, they've all been borrowed from someone else.

What do the words 'significant impact' have to do with politics?

Of course.

 

Theoretically, but what if you think you know the truth, and you are off a bit, and only know a part. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

If you grew up in a Muslim area, then it is clear by that statement that you would now be a Muslim.

We are both right, blessings.

 

I'm not claiming that it's the truth, only that it's meaningful. It's my interpretation of the world around me. Nevertheless, your point still stands: we are both right, at least in principle. But understand, my choice to be a Catholic still means that I have to accept all the dogma that goes along with it.

 

Everyone is conditioned; it's an inevitable consequence of being alive. Past experience, especially early childhood experience, play an important role in determining who we are. And yes, you are conditioned differently than me because your past experiences differ from mine.

Truth

Yes. Because you do believe the words in THE book, only your book is The Origin of Species, or the Principia, or Meditations on First Philosophy. Don't give yourself so much credit. Your ideas aren't your own, they've all been borrowed from someone else.

Incorrect..Occam takes all he has read..and "weighs it". The result is belief.
A belief based on a conscious method. Somes things are functional fact..the highsest form of belief..You know it WELL..It is the reason you wont step off a cliff unless you wish to die.
Other things are less probable...
Like your existance. [to occam that is ]

Understanding exists because we have information...
The information in books is provided by others...One takes the information and correlates it to all ather information held...using reason...
DO you BELIEVE every thing you read in books...?
DO you believe alice in wanderland,, the cat in the hat? the telly tubbies?
Are they real phenomena?
No.

Occam no more believes that The Origin of species is FACT that he believes the bible is, or the quran.

It is simply more probable.

What do the words 'significant impact' have to do with politics

You said
"You are far too conditioned for this conversation to have a significant impact on how you interpret the signs around you"

Is that not 'political' way of saying
That occam is incapable of understanding your perspective, And because he cannot...He will remain ignorant [of thier true meaning]

You assume that there ARE signs..
Are signs not just our interpretation of what is..
What if your interpretation is incorrect?

As occam admits HIS..may be.

Occam

 

The Galaxy Song
Monty Python

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

Sung by Eric Idle in "The Meaning of Life"

 

BlackGuard

Well occam did'nt expect the spannish inquisition. !!

Occam

----------
An interpetation of humanity by python

"Ooooh..whats that?"
"A Piston engine"
"What did you buy that for?"
"It was on special"
----------

 

Here comes the hospital administrator, quick turn on all the machines.

"and what are we doing here today?"
"a birth"
"and what sort of a thing is that?"
"Its where we take a little baby out of a woman's tummy."
"Oh, the wonders of science these days, carry on."

 

BlackGuuard

HoHo...Occam has been kacking himself
Looked up the script of the 5 minute arguement skit.
A favourite...As so many others are.

But we should be very carefull here......
You know what happens when the * get talking.....!
The next 5 pages of this thread will drown in python quotes...

And would that be a bad thing?
No

These guys show 'us' from 'a' different perspective.
Python
Blackadder
Yes minister

We laugh at ourselves, our foibles and sillyness,,,,and this is one of our strengths...
Occam thinks laughter and humour to be 'an' antithesis of
what many might agree as evil...

Sometimes this forum is like the 5 minute arguement

Occam

[no it is'nt]

 

you're just contradicting me.

no I'm not

yes you are.

Ah, blackadder, also great

How about manuel, and his pet rat, Basil, ring any bells?

 

Well I've definately seen you write out the cogito, so isn't Descartes' Meditations one of your the books. You seem to hold to a materialist metaphysics, so isn't Newton's Principia one of your the books?

Right. It creates a cohesive view of the universe. And it seems that the existence of the self and atoms are fundamental building blocks in your cohesive body of knowledge.

No, not exactly. I never said anything about true meaning. I said that you can't understand their meaning to me. But I still don't see how that's political.

I perceive signs, which signify a meaning. It doesn't even matter if they're real or not, the point is they mean something. There's no assumption.

Yes.

It doesn't matter if it makes you a better person and gives life meaning.

So do I.