How can god not exist?

BlackGuard, does it matter what people will call Kharakov? Perhaps they were joking, perhaps they were being serious, but why dismiss what they're saying as a lie and proclaim yours as the only truth?

 

well heres something for you noodle blackgaurd. Can god make a rock he cannot lift?

 

It is posible that the univere is aware of itself. Its anyones abilty to define that awareness i dont believe in, i just try not to worry too much about it and let things be. afterall the fact that things do happen is far more relevent than why they happen

 

Why would you use an illogical argument to argue against an illogical argument? That question has no meaning because it is illogical. It is no help in proving god doesn't exist. It makes you just as irrational as people who argue for god as the First Cause or whatever other arguments they come up with.

 

Well, lets just say that God knows everything that can be known. All knowing does not imply that God knows what a 'square circle' is, it implies that God knows that a 'square circle' does not exist (by definition). Neither does all knowing imply that God knows where God came from, since to have always existed means that you do not have a starting point to come from.

Why don't you say "Can God impose limits upon God?" That is a better way of framing the question. The answer is yes, and all it amounts to a decision on the part of God. God can decide 'I will never move that rock". Put it in its own universe so that nothing ever interacts with it, leave it alone for eternity. God could be like "Mental note to self, do not ever interact with that rock or let anything interact with it".

 

Well, I do agree with your posts about words and experiences. These past few posts alone have shown us that experiences are more powerful than words. If you haven't experienced something, then you surely cannot understand the explanation or description of it. There are even those of us who have experienced something so powerful that we cannot even describe the event ourselves. We rely on belief everyday just as said earlier. Beliefs are the many gateways to the one and eternal truth...this is all we really have. I don't believe that God is a figment of the brain or some theory like that because I know that a guitar cannot create music without a musician putting the music into the instrument. A guitar cannot simply play itself because there has to be the knowledgable one that knows how to play it to make music! The instrument is the vehicle through which music can be known, not the actual creation of the music. What do you guys think about that whole theory anyway? The one about God being a figment of the brain?


Ben.

 

ok...you win. i never agreed with that whole thing but i just remember it from my phil of religion book as one of the arguments against god

 

The universe is the body of the mind. Hehe. This is a statement worth discussion.

 

I agree and I do not like to separate the word from the experience it defines. I (trying not to judge) think you walk a thin line when you say that exeriences are more powerful than words. I feel that when you bind the experience to the word, and they should no longer be separatable. The word should conjure up the experience it is associated with. Words are a great work of art that has come about through people working together and coming to agreements on what experiences a word (or group of words) can describe. In my heart, i feel a kinship (loyalty) to us and the words that we use. They are so beautiful in so many ways- they require cooperation and understanding between neighbors in order to be useful. They bring people together and allow people to theorize outside of physical reality. People can share dreams with words, we can convey emotion from our innermost being with words. I truly love words for what they can be used for. Truthfully, the individuals who use their skills with words to build castles of thought are architects of heaven. To have many minds to add words to, that may be added to further, is the great thing.

What I struggle with know, is discounting others words as less valid because they might not make logical sense, or may not be used in the common manner. I think I should try and accept all that is said in a way that i truely see what can be built upon the words another said, without breaking down their statement as well. For me, my goal could be to always build upon the ideas I see. I need to put this in my signature to make sure that I do this.

I was a skeptic for many years, and would have readily agreed with that statement. Now I am older, and have seen certain things that let me know I am on the right path. The first step for me was to recognize that what was happening was not simple coincidence. It took me a long time to adjust my thinking to understand what was going on. Now if something with a deep connection to my inner (private) thoughts shows up in the exterial world, I recognize it for what it is.

 

There are many pretty, apparently logical, arguments against the existence of God. Unfortunately, unless the premise(s) of the argument are proven to be true and come to a logical conclusion, they are probably there for your amusement, or so you can learn to spot invalid logic. It's good you are interested in religion (even if only to argue against it) because you will eventually learn why things are as they are, which is part of growing up. You can learn more from an argument you fail (and admit you fail) than from winning an argument. You just need to analyze the wording of the argument until you see exactly what it means. Another, last, long winded note: It is always good to try ideas on other minds, for they can see falts that you never would.

 

Although I am not certain of the veracity of this claim (please see all other references made by many to the inability to prove or disprove God), God is a figment of the brain created to fill the gap left when reason no longer suffices. Because of each culture's unique point in time, each one has a different concept of what God is. As I mentioned in an earlier post, many people (or arguably, human brains in general) do not/cannot accept the unknown. I am reminded of a picture taken by the Hubble telescope showing a frame that contains thousands of galaxies. Each galaxy contains millions of stars with, accordingly, millions of planets orbiting those millions of stars. If I am remembering correctly, the frame was of a spot in the sky seen through the equivalent of an eight-foot-long drinking straw. Some of these galaxies are far enough away that the light given off takes billions of years to get here (even though the light is traveling at 186,000 miles per second).

We are on a non-descript planet in an average solar system in one of millions of galaxies in one tiny corner of an infinite universe. In that context, how can anyone claim to understand our place in the universe? Please note as well that none of the texts used by the major religions ever discuss anything in detail outside the bounds of this planet. Religion and belief in God are creations of the human mind based on our understanding of what we experience here on Earth.

...or all of what I have said is completely wrong.

 

I'm sorry, not wrong about everything, just possibly about the part about God as a figment of our imagination.

 

If God didn't make God's presence know to me I might Use God to plug up gaps. Dunno why though, reasoning seems to be able to come up with logical explanations (for the gaps in knowledge) most of the time.

God has a sense of humour, is very dramatic at times, and is the absolute master of sensuality, and likes to give comfort to those who enjoy it. Just a couple of good things about God. Another thing is, God knows when it is right to give you something.. the whole perfect timing thing.

Not to be a smart ass... What if an unknown hottie <non gender specific for all you different types> offers you a beer?

Do you say the religion and belief are creations of the Head Chef or the creations that participate?

I gotta go, took tones of provigil... wooot

 

Well, yes. I definitely agree with your post about words. I love words, too, because I am a songwriter. When words can take you to higher places and also relate to you, it is one of the greatest feelings. Words and phrases can be mood altering and can really shed light on our emotions. So yeah, I do agree with you on that. I just meant that sometimes experiences are more powerful, but really, words can be just as powerful...I guess that they are in balance!

Ben.

 

I agree with you about the power of words.

"The limits of my language mean the limits of my world."

Ludwig Wittgenstein--German philosopher​

 

I bet if God wanted to, it could make itself not exist. I mean why not? Wouldn't it get boring being God after half an eternity?

 

Kharakov

If God didn't make God's presence know to me I might Use God to plug up gaps. Dunno why though, reasoning seems to be able to come up with logical explanations (for the gaps in knowledge) most of the time.

But the fact of the matter is that humans have rarely used reason to plug up the gaps. Cultures have made assumptions about natural disasters as punishment from God, have prayed and thanked God when things are good, and thank God when they are personally successfull. None of this falls under the category of reason.

God has a sense of humour, is very dramatic at times, and is the absolute master of sensuality, and likes to give comfort to those who enjoy it. Just a couple of good things about God. Another thing is, God knows when it is right to give you something.. the whole perfect timing thing.

I'm not sure what you mean by "master of sensuality," or where you get your extensive knowledge of God (other than your personal experience, which we have discussed as untestable and unprovable for anyone else).

Not to be a smart ass... What if an unknown hottie <non gender specific for all you different types> offers you a beer?
Do you say the religion and belief are creations of the Head Chef or the creations that participate?

I gotta go, took tones of provigil... wooot

As a fellow smart-ass, I appreciate your sense of humor--but you would have to admit that your example doesn't really fit...Provigil--should I try some?

I enjoy discussing this with you.

 

When you experience these things, you will know what I speak of.

There are lots of things I do not know. Is this what you mean by accepting the unknown?
In addition, to accept something you have to know (or at least think you know) that something. So, as far as logic goes there is no possibility (as far as I know) of being able to accept the unknown (although I do not believe this is what you meant).

Google modafinal (I think). Well, as I don't really recall writting a lot of these things we are talking about in this conversation... and I mixed a bunch of klonipin with the provigil, god.. I am not taking provigil or klonipin for a long time. Thinking about it makes me feel nauseated.

Anyways, provigil is cool, they use it to keep marines up for days on end without to many side effects. However, if you just start eating it like candy because you decided to balance out the klonipin you took, and then you take more klonipin cuz you took too much provigil, and then you take more provigil..... Anyway, you understand what I am getting at.

 

I suppose that by "the unknown" I am referring to our creator, who is ultimately "unknown" (unproven/unprovable) to us. We cannot accept that unknown, and proceed to fill in the gaps with religion and faith. The alternative would be to understand that in the context of this infinite universe, we are nothing. Although I prefer to say that in the context of this infinite universe, how we exist and treat each other is everything; that is the reason to be moral, in my opinion, not because of the potential (or actual) existence of a creator.

 

As are many things (unprovable). That is why I use the 'law's standard' for proof: beyond a reasonable doubt. God is as knowable as your wife, parents, friends, or neighbors. God will interact with you on a profoundly personal level, because God knows you better than your wife, friends, parents, or even you do. When you are ready to see evidence of God, you will see evidence of God, not before. God is the one who knows when you will be ready. There are probably a few things you can do to get ready, but once again, God knows when to lead you towards these steps. When it comes down to brass tacks, God is the most Common thing, personality, whatchamacallit in the universe, so it is really no big deal to realize God's existence.

I am moral because it's the right way to be. Morality is a reward in itself.