Heaven Sucks

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by TheSamantha, Oct 26, 2016.

  1. Perfect Disorder

    Perfect Disorder Paradoxically Spontaneous

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    Is it that the stick isn't needed or that the location of the stick is so predetermined as to allow one to skirt it regularly with one's eyes closed?
     
  2. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    The Jews got along for centuries until the end of the Babylonian captivity without a real concept of heaven or hell, as did the Greco-Roman civilization. Sheol was essentially a warehouse for dead souls that everyone went to, much like Hades for the Greeks and Romans. And yet the fear of Yahweh as a force in this world was sufficient to keep them in line.
     
  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    You say our everyday life is somewhat lacking and this provides a sufficient contrast to promote the attractiveness of heaven. But what if we find pleasure in everyday life? If we enjoy life to its fullest even though that may entail the disapproval of others, as one person's pleasure may be another's sin, what then?

    Does mankind allow everyone to enjoy the present without regard, or are there those who have certain standards that they feel everyone should adhere to? If I view my life as completely fulfilled and choose to disregard the moral tenets of others, do they ever point out my moral errors and tell me to postpone those pleasures as a greater reward awaits? And if I still ignore their warnings and ignore the future reward of a heaven...do any of them then condemn my actions as wrong and against the will of mankind, nature, or God? And do they then point out that there may be a future penalty for my indiscretion?

    And what form does this future penalty take? A loss of heaven? What could that mean, would an eternal loss of the "wonderful place" not be eternally devastating? If we assume that we can experience a heaven after death for all eternity, wouldn't an eternal loss of that heaven be hell?
     
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  4. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Seems to me there are two different issues here. I'll try to deal with them both. The first concerns whether a person who finds everyday life pleasurable will have anything to look forward to in Heaven. I think so: more of the same, or better. To our knowledge, humans are the only animals who can contemplate their own mortality. Life is all they know, but they notice that friends and relatives who were around for decades keep dying, although occasionally showing up in their dreams. As rational beings, they may wonder if the same will happen to them, and what it will be like. Most people find oblivion hard to comprehend, since they've never encountered it before. In fact, most find it quite terrifying, even though philosophers like Epicurus may assure them there's nothing to fear because they won't really be aware of the change. I agree with Frankl that the quest for meaning is an important human need, A person who contemplates oblivion may wonder what was the point of all the toil and striving, the loves, conquests and achievements, if his (her) consciousness and memories cease to exist. So humans develop ideational systems, religion and philosophy, to come up with some palatable alternative explanation. I personally am cool with oblivion, but I know many who aren't. i can remember one poor woman in our neighborhood who was in a frenzy over the issue of whether or not there was a hereafter, but was consoled when her pastor assured her there was. And I know of several people who wonder how atheists can continue in life while knowing that it will all be "dust in the wind"in the end I personally don't believe in an afterlife and conceptualize hell and heaven as states of mind experienced in the here and now. Heaven to me is not a place to go to, but a condition to be experienced: the condition which I'm in most of the time.

    Then we bring morality into the picture. I think the linkage between morality and rewards and punishments in an afterlife is something that developed much later in history, but is certainly part of our cultural traditions. It's easy to understand why this linkage developed: social control. I think humans have something of an innate moral sense based on empathy and reciprocal altruism, but it needs reinforcement--particularly in extending moral obligations to persons who aren't kinsmen and to situations where infractions aren't likely to be detected. Rewards and punishments in an afterlife can serve these purposes and appeal to a sense of justice in which good or bad deeds seem to demand rewards or punishments. Those rewards and/or punishments can come in heaven or hell, or through reincarnation in response to karma. As I've said before, some pretty major societies like the Greco-Roman and early Hebrew did not, for the most part, have this concept and got along well enough. But eventually the Jews got it from the Persians, and the Greeks got it from the early Christians, who got it from the Persian-influenced Jews. Even in Buddhism, some variants of the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions have multiple hells and heavens.

    What if we enjoy life to the fullest even though others may disapprove? It depends. Is our enjoyment at the expense of others? If so, it's immoral. If we don't care about that, so what? It depends on what the disapproving others are willing to do to us to end our enjoyment, or whether a glimmer of conscience is enough to dissuade us from further misconduct. I suspect that it's impossible for people like that, those who gratify their desires at the expense of others, to be truly happy. A world in which such attitudes prevail is dukkha, the cause of which is tanha or shirk. Is Donald Trump really a happy man? I don't know, But I wouldn't want to trade places with him, for all his billions. He is a one-man dukkha machine, and just being Trump is, to my way of thinking, its own punishment. I suspect that at some level he senses the hollowness of his being. I certainly do. But I don't worry about such things, since my task is to remove the beam that is in my own eye. If we are enjoying life to the fullest, and it doesn't harm others, we should just tune out the disapproving busybodies.
     
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  5. Perfect Disorder

    Perfect Disorder Paradoxically Spontaneous

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    I trust you will allow others musings.
    To the subject of mortality and it's flow within oblivion we reach for the root of the unknowable which is vast and strong. My answer is that we have forgotten our inheritance of non existence and have allowed fear of it to rule our realistic understanding. We cling desperately to our inheritance of the real and drink deep of existence therefore calling it a more sustaining root.

    To morality we cleave our Self for ignorance of the Selfless. What is done to another is will made manifest. As is the other itself. The root of existence runs deep. It's flow is ever present and we swim against the ebbs not understanding their origination in non-existence. All roots are bound as one. I offer understanding and await to receive.
     
  6. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Sure.

    Okay.

    I wasn't referring to pleasures that harm others. Just normal everyday ones like hetero and gay sex, interracial marriage, etc.
     
  7. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Yeah. I'd consider acts done by consenting adults with each other to be a good example of something the busybodies should be tuned out of. Unfortunately, the religious zealots and Republicans haven't gotten the memo. I suspect their preoccupation with sexual sins is a way of drawing attention away from the economic sins they tend to be involved in.
     
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  8. Virginia Ekblom

    Virginia Ekblom Members

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    The beauty of Heaven is that when you get there, you won't care about what you love here. There will be no need for food or possessions. Just the love of family and God
     
  9. Virginia Ekblom

    Virginia Ekblom Members

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    I think enjoying people burning in Hell is awful. Why would you wish that on anyone? That's a very twisted mind to think that way.
     
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  10. wilsjane

    wilsjane Nutty Professor HipForums Supporter

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    So if you are a bad boy on this earth, you will end up somewhere listening to Götterdämmerung night and day. LOL.
     
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  11. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Sounds not that different as the christian concept of hell
     
  12. wilsjane

    wilsjane Nutty Professor HipForums Supporter

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    Ha ha. If hell is somewhere that I will be able to listen to Wagnerian opera night and day, I will reserve my place right now. LOL
    In case you did not fully appreciate my cryptic reply to Irminsul, Götterdämmerung (twilight of the gods) is the end of valhalla, the ring returns to the Rhine and the valkyries return to mortality.
     
  13. wilsjane

    wilsjane Nutty Professor HipForums Supporter

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    Forget Götterdämmerung, Silly old Wagner spoiling it all. Just mount your grey and ride alongside Brunhilde into valhalla.
    Or are you really Brunhilde hiding here on HF. :yum::yum::yum::yum:
     
  14. Noserider

    Noserider Goofy-Footed Member

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    Sold.

    So a typical Friday night for you then
     
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  15. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    It is save to say that if there's a hell and you like opera you will not enjoy opera there. For the people who can't stand opera however... I think you get the basic principle ;)

    Valkyries were not mortal to begin with i think... but its a retold story in the form of an opera so I'm ok with it :p
     
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  16. Asmodean

    Asmodean Slo motion rider

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    Valkyries don't take part in battle neither btw. ;) They only take the fallen warriors and serve them in Valhalla.
     
  17. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

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    I'm not your typical Valkyrie though. I have extra specialness. :)
     
  18. juggawatta

    juggawatta Love

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    Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens ~ talking heads
     
  19. juggawatta

    juggawatta Love

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    There are good people in Hell. That's why Jesus went to save souls. And the saints go to Hell, too. They're called victim souls.

    Undeserved suffering. Not all who are enjoying the best lives deserve it and not all who suffer extremes of severity deserve it. It seems fitting to God somehow, this prolific twistedness inherent in life. Similar to how one day is like a thousand and a thousand like a day.
     
  20. What bugs me is...people don't go to the bathroom in Heaven, do they? It would have to have one heck of a sewer. And if you don't go to the bathroom, do you eat? Here on Earth, eating is one of the things that brings everybody together. People go to church on Sunday and then go out to breakfast. But is there food in Heaven? I don't know, maybe it's just Heavenly food. But I doubt there is bodily waste. And if there's no bodily waste, do we still need anuses and private parts? Heaven holds a lot of mystery for me.
     

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