Esoteric, (Hidden,) Knowledge

Belief is never required only the commitment to an open mind.

 

I wasn't trying to say that meditation doesn't have its place - I'm sure it does. I find it useful to just sit quiet at times. And I've tried out various techniques in the past.
The results, whilst ok, can't be compared to the effects of LSD or other psychedelics.
When I talk to others about meditation I don't get the feeling that what they are experiencing is anything like the same thing.

I'll trawl a little on youtube to try the video where TM talks about all this. I'll post it up if I can find it.

I read some of Maslow many years ago, and I quite like his ideas about peak experiences. What I'd say though is that these can be of different kinds. I guess we have all had such experiences in the normal course of events - whether from sex, mountaineering, passing an exam- some big achievement or event. I've had my share.Maybe religious people who do prayer retreats or similar things get some kind of peak experience too. But the psychedelic state is unique in my own experience.

 

Every Scientist out there has their own belief system which already taints its claim to be beyond belief systems and dogma. The Scientist may be intelligent, but he's still just a human with a world-view. Whether he likes it or not, this filters in to every action of his work. While he claims to be being completely neutral, it's simply not true. Scientists are still being informed by their beliefs which is going to inform their hypotheses, theories, and conclusions.

It's the same for everyone. There's no problem with this unless one is claiming that it's not happening within their system. If one is aware that they have a certain angle, then they can consciously use that angle as a tool rather than claiming they have the one and only truth and everyone else is wrong.

 

You are correct in that we wouldn't be having this conversation without it, and I agree that it is integral to our survival. Certainly it is also a very animalistic experience.

However I still disagree with the idea that I am just a bystander if I haven't had sex. But I guess it all comes down to philosophy at that point.

Well, what do you define by "working"?
Can I cure cancer with dopamine? Probably not. But we can study the effects of faith healing - and there is some effect.

 

ok...so it's a step in the right direction that's worthy of being further looked into. Not shrugged off as utter bullshit, as Writer suggests.

 

Well, the utter bullshit remark, I believe, comes from the claims that are made about faith healing.

The claims are that you will be healed of all your ailments are bullshit.

However if the claim was more along the lines of:
"Talk to a healer who will make you feel better about your current state of distress via the mediation of a higher connected experience"

I think it would be less discouraged by the scientific community.

The problem with most "psuedo-sciences" is the claims they make without any proof of evidence other than a few anecdotal reports.

 

I can obviously only speak for myself on this. But it seems that a certain energy level is involved in the exp which I myself can't get anywhere near in any other way.
You can recall some aspects it quite clearly, but without another dose, there's no way I've found to get back to the actual state.

 

My own experience as I have announced here before is that a chronic pain complex i have suffered with for years and contributed to feelings of hopelessness has disappeared and a childhood vigor has been restored to my metabolism. this I attribute to the alchemical assumption of the lessons here for exposed. it happened in an instant, suddenly and enduringly.
we can achieve metamorphosis is what i get from it with utmost confidence standing in the middle of the experience. It becomes incumbent on my compassion to share what i see and honor our deep longing to return to our virgin state and get another chance to do it right.

 

TM on psychedelics, yoga and meditation. I agree with his basic idea here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spdxWhKxpF8

 

I've done it all in those terms, the ones dennis describes, early on,

i took my first trip at age fifteen in the olympic national park with my father my sister and a few of his adult friends. I had been cultivated to regard if reverentially.
Since that first trip I have always tripped alone and when in company never announce that i'm tripping. That is because I found encountering straight people when they knew you were high kinda created a strange dynamic for me that i wasn't comfortable with. I didn't use setting at all. I went to work on the stuff in a fast paced kitchen. i took it as part of regular regimen of encountering my daily life. Regular use created regular cadence of wax and wane in my life like it'[s own circadian rhythm. I had one accident in about three hundred trips doing this and that is i came into work late thinking I was on time was called into the office and it was only then that I put two and two together. This was all before age twenty one. I would be welcome to taking it again but In my situation I rarely encounter it. What I think about this functioning in real life situations while high as a kite is it has the effect of giving you great sense of balance.

 

I've also had the experience of that journey into the wilderness or going into the dessert for forty days or the ascetic journey of the eastern fakirs. It lasted 18 months. Now I am at home in any environment or any converstion.

 

And honestly, the faith healing findings seem to point towards Internal Alchemy and Magick, which are both linked to Psychology, even moreso than "God healing all ailments", especially if that is the claim of the faith healing.

Clearly, what is being shown is that the mind has power and that we as humans haven't fully discovered the potential of this power. Changing your internal chemistry via faith healing is a perfect step in the direction of Internal Alchemy, awakening Chi energy (very linked to Kundalini), and focusing your mind to create a change. There is no essential difference between a human's body and his external environment, so if one is changing one's internal world to something that's more harmonious, then it's going to change his/her body's vibration, mood, and overall energy, which is going to change the external manifestations of their life via the choices they make, the words they speak, the actions they perform, the relationships they have with others, etc. The outer world at all times feeds back and reflects whatever internal environment is going on. The outer world shifts in accordance to one's inner world. As above, so below.

 

It must be so nice to reside in fantasyland instead of reality. :crowngrin:

 

Where is that i have never been there but you seem to know much about it.

 

It varies depending on the person's disposition...

If one is exploring psychedelics for psychotherapy, it's likely they realize how some of their issues stem from reinforced thought patterns and behaviors, which the psychedelics help dissolve. Now having a professional psychotherapist as well as 'normal' therapy regimen likely helps alot as well.

For the artist, channeling the experience through their art.

Applying the deconstruction of beliefs to societal constructs, cultural norms, etc.

Applying psychedelic ideas to spiritual wisdom and practices. So on and so forth.

 

I think thats a great point, Bill. I want to speak on that but I'm a little scattered right now. These norther climes have me a bit sluggish this time of year as well, so please excuse me if my response is delayed. I'll write more when I collect my thoughts and get my energy up a bit.

 

What does God have to do with any of this? You know that many scientists believe in god, so stop it with this line. Not like believing in god is a virtue dude; its just a personal choice to put faith in an unproven assertion.

The "effects" scientists are seeing from faith healing are pretty minor shifts in neurotransmitters; the kind you might get by going for a jog, having sex, or watching a really good movie. These are not neurological effects of faith healing; these are neurological effects of being in a supportive room with a person in whom you trust authority and have a feeling of optimism and renewed vigor. This is placebo; this is somatism.

The findings shows that faith healing does NOT work. You understand that right? Faith healing cannot restore a lost limb, or cure cerebral palsy. Neither can prayer. Just because people feel good after they pray, or go to a faith healer, does not lend a single iota of credence to prayer or faith healing.

You absolutely have to understand this point. In this sense, faith healing continues to be utter bullshit in its claims. The only interesting thing scientists have gotten from it, is more data to add to the HUGE pile of data about how our activities and moods influence our internal chemistry, and vice versa; a WELL established fact in the "orthodoxy" of science.

 

All this logic will go right over her head, I am certain. Cognitive dissonance at its best. Many kudos for your keen reason, however.

 

think of it terms of where our transcental uderstanding comes from.

 

The point is, is that a positive change is happening in one's chemistry. I think you need to re-read my last post, as I pointed out that this actually points more towards Internal Alchemy and Magick even moreso than "God curing all ailments"

What Science hasn't yet taken the step into is how activities and moods can change our internal chemistry and how this has an effect on manifest reality.