Down in a hole

You're right.

However, I won't buy into your comparison between some BS theory I found while doing a term paper in AP physics class in high school, and some old lady selling me jesus, I mean there is a difference.

Jesus was a man, a child of God as you and I are, no more, no less, we can conclude this from what's tangible within the framework of our experiences.

By contrast, we have no way of knowing what the cosmos holds, the presence or absence of whiteholes and wormholes, so all we can do is sit here and pile it higher and deeper, right? It's still interesting to bend our minds around the subject, whether or not it's "productive" or scientific.

I spend all day being scientific, forgive me if I like to take a break and indulge myself once in a while, lol.

 

Not really

What the Bs theory said and what the old lady said are the same ...
Believe what IS not.
[ im not saying there was no jesus, im saying he had his life stolen
and was made a 'god on earth'.. poor bastard, what a fate]

Or maybe there are white holes.. and jesus was god...
Ockhams razor says otherwise... it works.
Just like it says 'reality has always existed'
Thus creationist 'science' goes away.
The question of where did it all come from goes away.
All energy/matter has ALWAYS existed.
How it gets shuffled about and structured is
how we came to be.
Our observable universe is a mere pinprick flash of
cohesion in a reality of infinite durational extension.

Yes, i keep beating this same line, over and over...[the one in blue]
We need to learn it. When we really learn it.
Ignorance, hate, fear, stupidity, will wither and die..
As it must if we are to become sane.
Our purpose is to be the arbiter of said cohesion.

Occam

 

Brilliant.

How can one be sure of that? Is it not possible that energy and matter pass between universes via worm holes, and that conservation laws as we define them only apply within our limited realm of observation?

I used to joke about this back in the days when I dropped acid, the idea that the sole purpose of life is to shuffle stuff around.

 

Conservation of energy does seem to be the foundation on which science has become based. In another thread the regimes of physics have been discussed, in this thread it is probably worth nothing that all have conservation of energy as a conerstone. Quantum Mechanics only really became as successful as it is after the inclusion of special relativity and its description of the interplay between mass and energy. The idea of a wormhole between two point in this universe is spectulative but not without theoretical basis.

 

tony

Do you mean Energy is the 'coin of our hypothesis'
It's allways there. never one iota more or less.
[the core meaning of 'conservation' there is X energy]
Now THATS a basis for a stable ecconomy.
Well, we've got step one.. 237 steps to go..
maybe by AD 10,191 well have it.

You mean like god?


Occam

 

This intrigues me. I've always wondered what happened to the stuff that went into a black hole.

 

My understanding is the stuff heats up due to the immense acceleration brought on by the gravitation field, to the point where it vaporises, and it breaks down into it's trace elements. The energy given off by this phenomenon results in the light that is emitted by the white hole on the other end.

Soo, next time you're tempted to cruise over to your nearest black hole for the intergallactic ride of your life, think again...

 

agent 99

It makes the hole bigger
why do you think the center of out gallaxy has a super massive black hole?
lots of stuff goes in. [and dont come out]
holes grow. [like elvis]

Occam

 

yellow

If the energy is emitted "results in the light that is emitted by the white hole on the other end."

Then where does the energy come from that we can see being emitted by black holes at the center of gallaxies as 100 lightyear long streamers of x and other radiation?
And how do holes grow in size if they are just 'portals'

Bad obseration people. The evidence does not fit the theories you propose.
wormholes and white holes are speculation.. nothing we observe gives them validation.

Occam

 

Is it not possible that the radiation we see is the energy emitted by particles as they are accelerated toward the hole, yet still outside the event horizon?

I was not aware that black holes grew in size. If this is true, then it's possible that black holes are merely repositories for matter, and not portals at all. In which case, never mind

 

But the real question is, does it have a hemi?

 

Yellow

Exactly right.. I was going to amend my post but thought id
let it stand to see if i was caught out.
[was straight up drunk when i posted. i amaze myself
even that i can be articulate with concepts but cant walk
5 feet without falling down. Like the Vienna circle..
the best thoughts came from a beer mug,, just ask Wittgenstein, Carnap, Frank and Russell]
You caught it..
It is my understanding that as the accretion disk thins towards
the event horizon the mass is disassembled.
The radiation is mass structures being shredded by gravitic
meatgrinder and the resultant energy being syphoned via
magnetic fields and warping of space into north/south streams.
[path of least resistance]
The rest goes into the pot.. The pot being below the horizon.

It is my understanding that galactic black holes are growing constantly.
Older galaxies have SMBH's while young ones have far less evidence of such phenomena.
Maybe you could reserch this..? Not that i'm lazy its just that im working
on the genetic structure of assholes.. The current US president being the top of the list for analysis.

Good catch and reply

Occam

PS.. Hawking said that micro holes 'evaporate'.
The surely they can also 'grow'.
Super massive black holes dont come from a super massive star.
If they did the star would have to be 10 times bigger than antares.
And such huge structures cannot 'hold themselves up' in this reality.
Me thinks they grow.. like homer in a mumu

 

Nicely stated. It's anyone's guess what happens in the pot below the horizon, but we know that mass can be converted to energy and vice versa, and it seems to be a closed system (can we call it a universe?).

It happens. I come up with my best material after having a few myself.

As an aside, my father, who was a Philosophy professor, was the last living disciple of Wittgenstein. We used to have some fascinating metaphysical discussions when I was a kid. Then I "grew up" and became an engineer, go figure. But hey, somebody's gotta drive the train, right?

 

Eh, I'm an astrophysics major, but I'm going to stay out of this one. Though I must say one thing, if you want to learn about black holes, don't watch the discovery channel, read a book. In my classes I get problems which involve deriving the mathematics of black holes, fun stuff. If ya'll want the formulas just let me know and I can check my notes.

 

Mellow

Wow thats REALLY interesting. I'm quite serious.
[in this age af sarcasm]

IF ONLY my father had not been turned into a fundamentalist at 12..
He might have used the tools he had.
Luckily i kicked back. and with a 140+ iq i managd to get a hold on reality
to some extent.
Jelous of you for having someone to coach you in early years.
I had to find own path. Never heard of Wittgenstein till mid 20's.
Luckily a formless desire to learn caught on history and this has served well.

Could you pass on any little 'things said or knowledge' your da gave?

Would love to hear.

Occam

PS
Hey . An 'engineer is a philosopher who wants it done right.'
The concept of machines and the 'male' addiction to them.
Is a philosophy in itself.
As is the female addiction to stopping it.

uhhohh.. im in trouble now.

 

Hearts

Wow. An astrophysics major at 18. [NOT being sarcastic]

Have read hundreds of papers and books involving singularities.
Formulas are OK.. But if you want to KNOW holes.. IMAGINE.

I can conceptualise holes. I SEE THEM.
I SEE accretion disks. I SEE space warped in spirals by 1 billion g
fields.
I can also SEE scale. I can fit SOL system and say Barnards star [5.91 LY] in head as single to scale unit..
Not that it does me me much good when shopping.. lol

My SKILL is concepts. Not math or politics. statistics or socialising.

As Einstien said.
"In understanding reality,
imagination is far more important than intelligence"

Occam

 

Occam, the whole read a book thing, definitely not directed at you.

Definitely agree with you on the importance of grasping the concepts. For me, sometimes after spending three pages of paper deriving a single equation of a black hole, it's almost a lethargic feeling doing the concepts afterwards.

Where do you normally read your papers, which journals usually? Me, I read what I can find, plus I can usually find some good eprints on arxiv.

The spatial-temportal reasoning is strong with you.

Me, I was able to test out of a lot of classes and got a year's worth of credit. I've enjoyed physics since I was a kid, and I figured if I'm decent at it, and it's not complete torture, sounds like something I can go into. I'm registered as a physics major, but at the moment I'm leaning towards astrophysics.

 

Lots of places..
Untold number in Net links
SciAmerican
ApJ
A&A
Published works.
Speculative Fiction
[Stephen Baxter for example]

You sound like you cant really decide which basket to put the
'eggs of effort' in.
A common problem with those who have multiple interests.
Physics could land you a tidy job designing better light water
reactors, if lucky maybe a fusion torus, or simply teaching which is cool.

Astro is more a 'i'll make the coffee' path as you need position and respect of peers to 'become'.
As a generalist. I cant say do this or that as i have no real experience in
these fields.
There is no 'doctorate of generalism'
If there was.. I'd get one simply on a verbal.

Singularities

The very concept that matter is torn assunder in a
gravitic warping gradient that ramps at 1000's of g's per Cm
had my wee head in a spin @ age 14. [1973]
I was hooked.
Such that would evaporate [spagettifi] the earth in milliseconds
and send the resultant energy off on it's journey round the flat/curve of the klien bottle universe we occupy.
[like the plumes of the SMBH at core of M 82]

Such titanic forces must answer some questions.
Yet
Knowing that all the Machine processing and storage power of our entire
earth would be needed to follow the structure and dynamics of a single blade
of grass. Also tells us this.
If we understand what we really understand and work from there.
There is nothing we cannot do.

Just dont waste years doing what i did. Sex drugs and rock'n roll
sound good.. but they lead nowhere. That is my Empirical truth,
a major player in the game of epistemology.

Occam

You Boo and I, all heroes... [squeel]

 

LOL--the key being to find the one in a million without that addiction, as I have done.

I've always looked at philosophy as being the foundation of knowledge, while mathematics is a level of abstraction above philosophy, physics is applied mathmatics, and engineering is applied physics. In any of these disciplines, it is the ability to understand the concepts that is most important, since the equations will be forgotten soon after the final exam, but the concepts stay with you forever.

As for words of wisdom from my dad, most of the interesting conversations we had were before I started high school, and learned about the hydraulics of the bong, at which point we butted heads, and didn't reconcile our differences until my mid-20's after I'd returned from the military, went back to school, and got my priorities in order. I didn't even know how well respected he was in his circles until he passed away fifteen years ago, and his colleagues came out of the woodwork to pay their respects.

The one thing I did learn from him wasn't about philosophy. It was more about life in general, and what's important. As brilliant as he was, he was absolutely miserable toward the end, having isolated himself from my mom, and everyone who cared about him, in pursuit of some holy grail of knowledge.

Had my dad wasted a little more of his time in pursuit of the frivolous things, without feeling guilty about it, he may have been a whole lot happier. It's all about balance. Everything in excess

 

thought ya'll might be able to use this... it's a couple things I was working on for black holes, it's got a couple derivations...
-using a GR equation to prove that an object falling into a black hole approaches the singularity indefinitely
-tidal force
-GPE of an object entering a black hole, newtonian derivation, comparison with relativistic GPE-mc^2

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y79/remindmetogo/farmhouse001.jpg