Does space continue

Never ending is not so hard to imagine. Ever seen a circle?

 

Or a Mobius strip.

 

Stiffy [lol]

Yes a circle or a mobius strip.

I have argued the concept of a reality without beginning or end
MANY times.
None has ever shown me a shred of evidence to show that it
SHOULD have a beginning or end. let alone that it did.
There is reality.
And there is the near infinite set of things that can be organised from reality.
Universes. galaxies stars planets people protiens.
People in general think those organised structures ARE reality.
No, they are blue red and green blocks made from reality.
Reality IS.
There can be no 'time' when reality did not exist.
A lack of reality is THE ONLY TRUE IMPOSSIBLE THOUGHT

And by reality i mean far more than our puny universe.
Our Universe is analogous to a mid rent suburb on the edge of a small
town in 'another' universe all of which are a nested spec of activity in a greater reality.

Our problem. And the reason religion for example ever had a chance to explain anything [which it does not]
Is that we think to SMALL.
In a reality of infinite duration. Gods would be quite common.
Thay are the ones who organise universes.

Ours was organised by Ted.
Nice chap

Occam

 

That's all fine, especially the part about Ted, except for

How can any number be near infinite? Either the set you mention is infinite, or is as far from infinity as is the number one.

 

Lol

True.

One and 3 thousand billion trillion are the same when you talk of 'infinite'

Lets say a trillion trillion things. Can be made from the stuff of reality.
That sounds good.. no? People can say a 'a trillion trillion'
and not sound too pretentious.
Unless they have to explain what a trillion means. lol


Occam

Ps the 'Ted' comment comes from the movie
'poltergiest 2'
when all is in perill and the family flee their house, all is death and woe.
they open front doorto escape.
And theres this guy.
'Who are you' the father says..

Hi . im Ted.

[it's worth watching the movie just to see that scene. it's a 'classic'
"' i replayed it 10 times ,could not stop laughing...got to see it to understand it. legendary"'
the actor , who is also the silent indian in
'one flew over the cuckoos nest' is a master
I always imagined god would pop up at the last moment
of humanity and say.
'whats been going on.. you need help'?]

Occam

 

How can nothing end? lets say you get out past all the matter in our cluster of universe and you're flying through empty space. Nothingness. Isn't nothingness the end to the "things" we are and live with? In order for nothingness to end there would have to be more things beyond it. Then those "things" would have to end, leaving more nothingness beyond that, and so on and so forth.

What I'm saying is its logically impossible for the universe to HAVE an end, except perhaps as a point beyond which there is no matter.

 

Geo

Ah.. But space is not 'flat'
And this is the hardest barrier to leap but once done you see the
beauty and connectedness of all. Space is a 'thing in itself'
Around such objects as singularities it actually warps in a radical curve.
Around ALL mass it is warped.. this is commonly called gravity
The earth does not 'pull you down'
What we call gravitational attraction is the mass of the eaath
bending space and we are all falling down that curve toward the
'pinch point' so to speak.
Einstien gave us this knowledge.. god bless his bones.

Black holes dont 'grab' light and pull it below the event horizon.
They warp space so that light, travelling in straight line, if it could have a subjective viewpoint.
Would be curving towards and then below the
event horizon 'objectively'.
Light does not escape black holes.. but the speed of light is ''constant'
it cannot change.. thus we KNOW that the only way the light
cannot leave a black hole is that space is warped into an orbit
that equals the diameter of the event horizon.
If black hole were mere portals..Then where does their TITANIC gravity field come from? I suggest that if you could measure all the matter that fell into any one such hole the amount of gravity would exactly match the mass that was infallen. They 'may rip space apart below the horizon..
and make some sort of portal.. but we will not likely ever find out.
A gravitic gradiant of thousands of g's per centemeter near the horizon
spagetifies all mass.
Science postulates that the objective universe does the same thing.
All he mass in the universe [and the mass in finite, because the bang singularity was finite]
bends space beyond the mass and curves it back on itself.
Thus, if you head anywhere at say 'warp factor 50'
You'll eventually end up back in the same place.
The 'shape' of the universe is apparently similar to a klien bottle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle

A 3 dimensional mobius strip..
So, regarding 'extension' [Extension (metaphysics), the property of taking up space]
Technically the universe does not have an 'end' as you say...
Just like it does not have a beginning.
The objective shape of space is finite. The subjectice shape is infinite
you can keep travelling forever.
What is 'outside the universe..?
More reality, with diferent laws more than likely..
Thats why our universe is a closed system.
like a drop of mercury in a bucket of water.

I believe however that 'duration'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duration

Is infinite.
All the mass and energy in reality
[ our universe being a very small part of that reality]
has ALWAYS existed.
ANd always will.
The processing of reality has no beginning or end
and is not a physical thing like mass and space so does not
'bend back on itself'.
It is a processing of law appon all matter and energy.
The human 'speed of thought' is a result of such.
Why is a cockaroach so hard to squash..
It's speed of thought is faster than ours.
[neuroelecrical distance/reaction]
Computers process at the s.o.l. thus they do problems
in seconds that would take me or you years.
'Time' is a relative thing. Depending on the physical nature of
the observer.
Time is simply rate of motion.
And motion is the processing of reality.

Cool ehh? Really gets the neocortex working.

Occam

 

Razorofoccam
You sound like a priest. Ranting from the pulpit.

 

Empty space is something. If there was just space, which was completely devoid of matter and energy, that in itself would be astonishing. It's still a place where things can be put. It has properties of 3 spatial dimensions and 1 time dimension. It also enables the concept of inertia and angular momentum, therefore it even has an orientation. Even in an empty universe (except for yourself), if you spin with respect to this orientation, you will feel an outward force. It also defines several constants such as the speed of light, plank's constant, the gravitational constants, etc. All these properties are something.

Nothingness is the absense of matter, and energy, and even an absense of a place and time for matter and energy to exist. That, I would assume, would be the default state. And somehow, spacetime and all this in the universe, or possibly multiverse, came from complete nothingness. That is a good trick.

 

Or until replaced by another intelligence (evolved or manufactured).

 

manufactured by us I hope

 

The universe has all the qualities of being of non contingency. Do we matter in this cosmology as presented from either a secular or theocratic position.

 

lol

Well i put forward ideas.. You may agree or attack them it will.

Non contingency ? quality/qualities of being is subjective statement.
Not objectively definable. How does human logic apply?
Phenomenology/effects would be more appropriate.
I mean,, what are the 'qualities of being' of venus..
There are 6.3 billion versions. One for every person on earth.
And you might say AHH!! but everyone agrees it's a planet.
Wrong. I know people that believe the lights in the sky
are pinpricks in the black velvet of night that
comes after the sun goes where-ever it goes after daytime.

And who's to say they are wrong.
I am quite willing to admit that i could be totally wrong about
everything. After all i've only just looked at the sky and read books.
How would i [or you] actually know what space is or its shape
or if it goes on forever. Ive never been further from the ground
than a 747 has taken me...
Maybe the night IS black velvet.

Occam

 

Time for a rant

I've been on package tours several times you see, and I decided that this was for me.
I mean what's the point of being treated like sheep. What's the pointof going abroad if you're just another tourist carted around in buses surrounded by sweaty mindless oafs from Kettering and Coventry in their cloth caps and their cardigans and their transistor radios and their Sunday Mirrors, complaining about the tea - "Oh they don't make it properly here, do they, not like at home" - and stopping at Majorcan bodegas selling fish and chips and Watney's Red Barrel and calamares and two veg and sitting in their cotton frocks squirting Timothy White's suncream all over their puffy raw swollen purulent flesh 'cos they "overdid it on the first day.
And being herded into endless Hotel Miramars and Bellvueses and Continentales with their modern international luxury roomettes and draught Red Barrel and swimming pools full of fat German businessmen pretending they're acrobats forming pyramids and frightening the children and barging into queues and if you're not at your table spot on seven you miss the bowl of Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup, the first item on the menu of International Cuisine, and every Thursday night the hotel has a bloody cabaret in the bar, featuring a tiny emaciated dago with nine-inch hips and some bloated fat tart with her hair brylcreemed down and a big arse presenting Flamenco for Foreigners.
And then some adenoidal typists from Birmingham with flabby white legs and diarrhoea trying to pick up hairy bandy-legged wop waiters called Manuel and once a week there's an excursion to the local Roman Remains to buy cherryade and melted ice cream and bleeding Watney's Red Barrel and one evening you visit the so called typical restaurant with local colour and atmosphere and you sit next to a party from Rhyl who keep singing "Torremolinos, torremolinos" and complaining about the food - "It's so greasy isn't it?" - and you get cornered by some drunken greengrocer from Luton with an Instamatic camera and Dr. Scholl sandals and last Tuesday's Daily Express and he drones on and on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country and how many languages Enoch Pow ell can speak and then he throws up over the Cuba Libres.
And sending tinted postcards of places they don't realise they haven't even visited to "All at number 22, weather wonderful, our room is marked with an 'X'.
Food very greasy but we've found a charming little local place hidden away in the back streets
where they serve Watney's Red Barrel and cheese and onion crisps and the accordionist plays 'Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner'." And spending four days on the tarmac at Luton airport on a five-day package tour with nothing to eat but dried BEA-type sandwiches and you can't even get a drink of Watney's Red Barrel because you're still in England and the bloody bar closes every time you're thirsty and there's nowhere to sleep and the kids are crying and vomiting and breaking the plastic ash-trays and they keep telling you it'll only be another hour although your plane is still in Iceland and has to take some Swedes to Yugoslavia before it can load you up at 3 a.m. in the bloody morning and you sit on the tarmac till six because of "unforeseen difficulties", i.e. the permanent strike of Air Traffic Control in Paris - and nobody can go to the lavatory until you take off at 8, and when you get to Malaga airport everybody's swallowing "enterovioform" and queuing for the toilets and queuing for the armed customs officers, and queuing for the bloody bus that isn't there to take you to the hotel that hasn't yet been finished. And when you finally get to the half-built Algerian ruin called the Hotel del Sol by paying half your holiday money to a licensed bandit in a taxi you find there's no water in the pool, there's no water in the taps, there's no water in the bog and there's only a bleeding lizard in the bidet. And half the rooms are double booked and you can't sleep anyway because of the permanent twenty-four-hour drilling of the foundations of the hotel next door - and you're plagues by appalling apprentice chemists from Ealing pretending to be hippies, and middle-class stockbrokers' wives busily buying identical holiday villas in suburban development plots just like Esher, in case the Labour government gets in again, and fat American matrons with sloppy-buttocks and Hawaiian-patterned ski pants looking for any mulatto male who can keep it up long enough when they finally let it all flop out. And the Spanish Tourist Board promises you that the raging cholera epidemic is merely a case of mild Spanish tummy, like the previous outbreak of Spanish tummy in 1660 which killed half London and decimated Europe - and meanwhile the bloody Guardia are busy arresting sixteen-year-olds for kissing in the streets and shooting anyone under nineteen who doesn't like Franco. And then on the last day in the airport lounge everyone's comparing sunburns, drinking Nasty Spumante, buying cartons of duty free "cigarillos" and using up their last pesetas on horrid dolls in Spanish National costume and awful straw donkeys and bullfight posters with your name on "Ordoney, El Cordobes and Brian Pules of Norwich" and 3-D pictures of the Pope and Kennedy and Franco, and everybody's talking about coming again next year and you swear you never will although there you are tumbling bleary-eyed out of a tourist-tight antique Iberian airplane...

 

Yes and no I think. We have as much impact on the universe as one mosquito fart does for the planet earth. On the other hand, without any kind of life who was advanced enough to view the universe and wonder about it, ask questions, understand at least some of it, and admire it's beauty, to quote the movie Contact, it seems like an awful big waste of space.

 

Yes I do need to brush up on my cosmology and probably my manners as well.

I lived in Europe for 5.5 years so I can understand the rant.

Cheers

 

I do know that infinity is a concept, not a reality. I know that if space is infinite, you only have a finite amount of matter to fill it.
Whatever caused space was rather interesting. I think this is more a philosophical question as there are two possibilities: it was always here or it was created.
"Matter cannot be created or destroyed" but it can turn into energy. Either way, you are talking about density be it normal density or energy density. Having said that, you cannot have an infinite about of density of anything. Also, you can't have an absolute 0 density of something. With that said, if there was a time that they did not exist, they we created at the exact same time.

This leads into another question: Is time infinite?

 

Zhyppers

I've made my position pretty clear..
What do you think? Is time/duration infinite?
Think well, and ask this first.
What came before time.?..[is that not an oxymoron]

Space mater and energy without time?

Stasis? Im quite willing to admit stasis might exist.
But structure without dynamics is a tedious bore.. why bother.

Occam

 

Can i touch u .. you know.. THERE?
[between the lymbic and cortex]

Occam

 

I will admit that space or matter-energy without time seems rather pointless but if time is infitnite on the past side, this moment would have not existed and infact according to the laws of thermodynamics, everything would be in an energy equilibrium which obviously hasn't happened yet. (this is assuming something did not break the laws of chemisty and phyics)

Does this mean that the future time after this moment is infitnite? I can say that the argument from the past will most likely not argue the future time being finite. However I can say that if the past is finite, thet means we have matter-energy and space existing without time. In that instance I can see contradiction because if you have matter-energy in space, something has to be moving and measurement for movement or Velocity is Meters per second which implies time existed before time.

Having said that, Matter-energy cannot exist without space, space cannot exist without matter-energy, if you have matter-energy and space, you have time. So if time is finite, that means that matter-energy and space did not exist before time existed. Having broke some physical laws (matter-energy cannot be created or distroyed) you got into a philosophical debate and not science.

I think I just argued both cases for the past being infinite or finite. As far as the future, I'm not sure... but then again, who is?

Rip my argument appart. I need critisism for any argument made to be solid.