Does Everything Have A Logical Explanation?

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Deidre, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Moonglow181

    Moonglow181 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    I don't care about memorizing names of constellations or anything...some people are good at things like that....but yes, I create all of the time........even if it is just a mess at times....:D

    Look at Van Gogh....He did not create any children, that we know of, but people still talk about his creations.
     
  2. I'minmyunderwear

    I'minmyunderwear Newbie

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    so does this company actually have naming rights to the stars? or is it like if i took pictures of random babies and let people "name" them for a fee?
     
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  3. Deidre

    Deidre Visitor

  4. Lynnbrown

    Lynnbrown Firecracker

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    2 people like this.
  5. ThriceHistMorphs

    ThriceHistMorphs Members

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    Astrology is more legit than most people think it is.
     
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  6. Well the Universe is actually named Goth and our galaxy is actually named the Goonies. People think I'm being ironic or gayly goofy but the galaxy is just kind of ancient. "Milky Way" is pretty.
    I like it. But it's actually just the Goonies.

    Van Gogh created children through his art. I believe that. Shit that hardcore doesn't last in an evil world. And if you destroy it I will just draw it again. >:p
     
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  7. Deidre

    Deidre Visitor

    Astrology isn't "logical," though. :unsure:
     
  8. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    I have experienced all kinds of things that defy rationality or logic. I have shared some of that, as many of you know, in various threads here. I spent a good part of my life looking for that unexplainable event that would be proof of an Absolute. I was always very skeptical, but it seemed that I was driven to find this. By the 1980's I had given up and decided there could be no proof, no supernatural event, no unexplainable aspect to the universe that I could find---and that if there was anything beyond our reality, it was also beyond our ability to experience. I became very agnostic despite the fact that implications, such as those of my mortality, did not sit well with me.

    Then in the early 90's I got my first taste of the illogical, irrational, metaphysical experience in the Philippines when my wife's first husband passed away. All kinds of weird things happened around that, culminating in my 9 year old stepdaughter having a mental breakdown, according to several doctors--one a close friend, and that despite this kind of breakdown being unusual in someone so young, that it would take years, and probably institutionalization to cure her, if she could ever be cured. And then a few days later, a Philippine Native healer, for nothing more than a gift of tobacco, healed her in a ceremony that lasted only a minute or two. It blew my mind when she looked up at her mother and said, "Mama, where am I?"

    That put me back on the path of searching, and then so many years later, and after an increase of synchronicities, and illogical events, each of which I was able to rationalize away, though each rationalization became more and more flimsy, I got the proof I had always looked for---an event that I had no way of explaining---and everything had lined up just right so that no matter how many times I returned to the site, or went over the chain of events, I could neither rationally explain what had happened, nor deny what had happened (I have told the story of what happened, as some of you know, in other threads, several times, on this forum).

    Now I participate in ceremony with Native Americans---and I really do live in two very different worlds: a Western world where logic and rationality rule our experiences, and an indigenous one where synchronicities happen on a regular basis, and the supernatural is just a ceremony away. There are tons of stories that I could tell-----but I really do believe that it is something you have to experience for yourself. The yuwipi or spirit calling ceremony is especially powerful. You see, feel, and hear, the spirits come into those ceremonies. But it doesn't end in the ceremony---things happen outside of the ceremony as well.

    For example, my brother had gone to a few sweat lodges with me, and so I thought I would take him to a yuwipi. He had a thyroid problem and did not want to have it removed, which was the cheaper option. But he could not afford health insurance that would be willing to fund the more expensive, thyroid maintenance. I told him that he could pray about that in the ceremony. In that particular ceremony the eagle was one of the spirits that came in to the ceremony. I prayed for him, and he prayed as well (in addition to praying for the people that the ceremony was for).

    Coincidentally this yuwipi happened on the same weekend as the Denver Indian Market at the Convention Center. I planned to go there the next day because the cousain of one of my friends is a Native American film actor and he was going to be signing autographs and so forth. I know him through my friend and will always go visit him when he is in town for such things. He is good friends with the Native American Band, Brule' (one of the first bands to create a rock-traditional Native American music mix type of genre), and suggested I watch them play, and then he'd introduce me to them, and get me a signed DVD. (He has also been a drummer for Brule' from time to time).

    I watched their show, and was especially interested in a song in which they told a story about the eagle, and which was accompanied by two eagle dancers---with long eagle wings. A moment after the song ended, my brother called me and said, "You are not going to believe what just happened." He then explained that he was driving down a road that parallels I-70, and an eagle flew down in front of his car and went with him as he drove. He watched in amazement, but when he reached a stop light, he had to turn right and into an underpass as he crossed under the highway. The eagle of course flew off, which didn't surprise him, but he thought that was really cool. He then turned under the highway, and when he came out the other side, the eagle swooped down and went with him again. He drove about a mile or so with the eagle right there, until he reached his destination. He asked if I thought it had anything to do with the Yuwipi ceremony. I told him about Brule' and the eagle dance that I had apparently watched at the same time, and said that I'm sure it did.

    Sure enough, the next day, Monday, he got a call from a company he had applied at, and they wanted him to start right away. When he went in for the interview, he asked about the health care, which seemed to be a much better one than what he was on with his current employer. In fact, when he did start working there, the health insurance was willing to work with him on maintanencing his thyroid issues. He has had several jobs since, but each time, the insurance has helped him.

    Natives that grow up in the traditional ways find such questions as the OP, or whether or not there is a spiritual side to the universe, to be silly. Such things as spirit is a matter of fact reality for them---they have experienced it directly all their lives. The Native American Church has a saying about this---'The White Man goes into his church and prays to God. The Indian goes into his tipi, and talks 'with' God.'



    ...Of course, being the Westerner I am, I have worked on a philosophy (again as many of you know) that provides a rational model of the universe which includes the irrational, nonphysical realm---to try to come to terms with my experiences.
     
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  9. ThriceHistMorphs

    ThriceHistMorphs Members

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    "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong."


    -Carl Jung
     
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  10. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    Bad nonsense is literally obscene . Horrific . I am appalled . A manipulative Power may embrace it in its every
    aspect of being opposite .
     
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  11. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    Opposite opposite : could logically indicate extremely opposite

    Opposite of opposite : nonsense

    Opposite of opposite of opposite : confounding , bad nonsense . Hysteria may be induced - followed
    a dullness of wit then by depressive numbness

    Exactly opposite : logical

    Let the opposite of Life mean No-Life . Might death be only one aspect of this (exactly) ? Other references are possible - like
    when pointing to a lifeless Mars . Or like when making a serious and deadly threat . When No-Life is opposite of opposite it is -
    ain't it not - the ha ha ha hey yust yoking yet not exactly so be careful .
     
  12. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    ack! is a root word of Opposite . yuck! is also - nyet! - it's more like spitting puke .
     
  13. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    When god is not a thing , we may look to the sky and say
    there is nothing but sky .

    "nothing but" is only weirdly logical .

    And another thing ... Sometimes god does not exist = god is not a thing .

    When spirit is a thing , and we still look to the sky crying See ! only sky . That's because
    at the moment it is a shiny rock with crazy eyes .
     
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  14. Deidre

    Deidre Visitor

    I think these stories indeed defy logic! Do you think these were miracles of some type? I'm spiritual after a long journey ''between'' religions, and feel good here, and believe that miracles do happen.
     
  15. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    A miracle is its own logical explanation for a need fulfilled and with perfect timing . First , the necessity was logical .
    My miracle just yesterday was a noisy yardstick . In the moment I was wondering where I'd last put it I heard a clack - looked
    that way - and there it was , having shifted a bit from where it'd been resting against a wall . I needed it to measure some cloth
    for a project .
     
  16. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Never liked cats much. Never disliked them either. 3 or 4 cats had residence in my best friends house as we grew up. Never touched one. I was on Maui 1969 and cruising down the highway with a couple of friends and as we were driving, I saw something moving in the road ahead. It was a kitty dodging cars and was right on the center line, so I implored the driver to STOP. I grabbed the little guy and saw that he had been hit already and one eye was hanging out of its socket. Took him directly to the vet and he removed the damaged eye and sewed up the remains. He was a loving little guy and feisty too. The two girls I lived with had a couple of large dogs and when they would try to bully the kitten--he stood up to them like a trouper. So--I got to loving my first cat and admired him greatly. Week or two went by and I was called to Oahu to work on some roofing there and off I went. First day on the roof, cruising along nailing wood shakes and all of a sudden---I got a weird feeling and knew--just knew with certainty that something had happened to my kitty. So strong that I threw my hatchet down, went to a pay phone and called Maui. AS soon as one of the girls answered and realized it was me, she started crying and told me that she had just backed over my kitty with the car. Is it logical that this happened to me --or illogical?
    My thought is that for thousands and thousands of years, humans had been so close to nature ---that to survive, certain elements/abilities developed for survival and understanding of their world---abilities that have become buried over time and sometimes bleed through in modern life and leave us wondering why certain events occur.
    Not an earth shaking event compared to musing about the Universe, but none the less something I haven't forgotten and is in the realm of the mysterious.
    The older I get, the less logic I find in religion, observing the events in the world of humans. Surely a benevolent creator would't stand his/her/its creations to continue the sad saga of death, destruction,inequity, etc, at which humans are efficient.
     
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  17. rjhangover

    rjhangover Senior Member

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  18. Mountain Valley Wolf

    Mountain Valley Wolf Senior Member

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    I do, except that the term miracle, or even Jung's term, synchronicity, implies that they are unusual and rare. I find that the more I am in ceremony, the more these things happen outside of ceremony as well---often it is something simple that we would otherwise never notice. When I am too busy and don't make it to ceremony for a while then I do not notice such things as much. Then there are other times when the universe is trying to tell you something, and these things might happen more often as well, regardless of whether one is channeling such things (for lack of a better term) through ceremony.

    I think the problem is our overwhelming focus on physicality and material reality. We live in a disenchanted world. And when we encounter people of a culture where everything in nature has a meaning, so to speak, we dismiss them with "Oh how quaint" and write them off as superstitious. But then we fail to realize that more often than not they are picking up on ques within their environment that does have significance to the events, no matter how unrelated, that happen around them. I know, I've been there. That was how I would respond to comments and things my second wife would say---"how quaint." Not out loud, of course. I liked that she would say such things---unless it got in the way, then I would insist that she was just being stupid or something like that. But I think I looked at her 'quaintness' as another oddity to bring home and put in my collection along with all the other weird things I have collected from around the world---only she was one I could bring with me everywhere and show off. But the thing is that these quaint things often did have a real physical world meaning. For example, whenever she smells incense or a candle, and there is no incense or candle around, then we always hear within a matter of days that a relative of hers passed away (and these things always happen a day or two before the person actually dies). At some point I finally did realize that there is something authentic to all these ques she picks up on.

    In my very first vision quest, the very first thing that happened to me occurred on my first night. I was asleep, and it was probably around 3 or 4 am, when I suddenly opened my eyes, and saw 2 bats fly in just a foot or so above my head---they came from the West (which is significant as the starting point to the Lakota). I could see them very clearly despite it being dark, when they reached just above my stomach they flew up another foot or so, and turned into a dive and swooped back over my face. My immediate reaction (besides a feeling of awe) was one word: "stealth." They were moving so silently and swiftly--effortlessly. And then I understood what was my first lesson----to be aware---I suddenly knew that whatever will happen to me on that vision quest will be subtle and quiet like these bats---that I had to be aware and observant to catch it. And sure enough, that is how my vision quest played out. Different people experience different things, and some of these things can even be very scary (even though you are told that nothing can hurt you while you are in your altar----but your altar is nothing more than a rectangular string of tobacco ties a few inches off the ground, over a line of sage that was laid down, and which is tied to 4 branches of Red Willow with a tobacco flag tied to each one, and a sacred pipe loaded with tobacco (and your prayers). One scary story that happened to someone, a brave soul---this person saw a large boulder come rolling down the mountain straight for him. He remembered that the Medicine Man told him not to move no matter what happens. But this large boulder kept coming straight for him, he could hear it crushing branches and its heavy weight rolling towards him. He grabbed his pipe as it was almost upon him, and closed his eyes and started praying in fear, he thought for sure he'd be crushed. But then suddenly he didn't hear anything. He opened his eyes, and instead of a large boulder, he saw a bunch of small rocks right in front of him, shaped into a medicine wheel.) But the next several days were spent with many lessons being learned from birds, trees, butterflies, even a small beetle, and then I watched a portion of the Lakota myth of creation play out in the night sky---it was very subtle and silent---not a vision per se---as it involved the stars and meteors (Woh'pe (wokhpe) is the Lakota version of the sky maiden or star woman who came down to earth to get the 4 winds to form the 4 directions--woh'pe is the shooting star.) There was a nonverbal communication involved in all this----I wasn't simply observing everyday nature and contriving meaning from it. These creatrures of nature were communicating with me.

    I think there is quite a bit that happens around us---but we are not even aware----like the lesson from the bats. We miss out on the little things, and consequently miss out on the big things. The world itself is a miracle--from one moment to the next---just the fact that it remains consistent as it manifests from out of a sea of infinite quantum randomness.

    Unfortuantely religion itself has disenchanted the world for us. Nietzsche was right when he said that God is dead and it is the one's that were to protect him that killed him. For modern man, even for many of the religious, he really is dead (such religious people I refer to just don't realize it). Certainly for the Modern World, which hermetically seals itself off from the nonphysical, God is dead. This doesn't mean that god, or however you understand the Absolute to be, is really dead, it is simply contextually so from that modern frame of reference.

    Oh---and belief is a part of it as well. Therefore, when my dad's prostate cancer began to metastasize into his bones, I knew that he would be healed in ceremony. I don't know what he expected, but witnessing first hand as the spirits healed him, I'm sure there was no more question for him either. But for whatever reason, before I believed, I was shown---so belief is not always necessary... Well---you know what I mean.

    But, yeah, to my Native friends who follow the Red Road, such things are not unusual or rare----they happen all the time, and are a matter of fact.
     
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  19. Deidre

    Deidre Visitor

    Before I go into the rest of your post, MW, why do you think he considered miracles to be ''unusual and rare?'' Because logically, we can't make sense of miracles, so if they happen at all, they're likely unusual and rare? I sometimes think we mistake miracles for coincidences. :blush:
     
  20. themnax

    themnax Senior Member

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    first nothing has to be known in order to exist. that's a simple reality that the ego often seems to have a problem with.
    now there's no way in which ignorance excludes logic. nor is it in anyway contrary to logic for randomness to exist.
    but we do subject ourselves to needless and often easily avoidable pain, by somehow attempting to pit things like consideration, or the possible will of unknown unseen things, somehow against logic.
    if logic exists, and it seems to be useful, we cannot after all, reliably avoid causing harm without it, then it does,
    so why wouldn't logical explanations exist, even if we didn't know them?

    if the question is whether a universal wonder of strangeness can exist, again, neither it, nor logic, in any way mutually exclude each other.
    and i do believe that the universal wonder of strangeness is a real, and possibly even sacred thing,
    whatever unseen forces or beings, may or may not also.
     
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