Do You Think Jesus Really Ever Existed?

http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/471928-whats-the-real-deal-with-buddhism-and-reincarnation/

 

Jesus is a Buddhist......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCS7P-vdRM

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdO7IDCoIH0

 

I think the God Gene shows Science that Spirituality still wins out in the end. If you don't believe in Spiritual forces, you're just a step behind in Evolution is all. But I won't judge you for it

 

I don't see it in terms of science vs. spirituality. Ideally, the two should compliment each other.

 

Yeah it was more of a joke than anything

 

Since this is in relation to the story of Jesus, I will post this. Please tell me how the story of Buddha sounds more believable than the story of Jesus? And remember Buddhism is BASED on The Buddha's Awakening and Enlightenment.

http://www.biography.com/people/buddha-9230587

from the link:

Siddhartha Gautama, who would one day become known as Buddha ("enlightened one" or "the awakened"), lived in Nepal during the 6th to 4th century B.C.

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That night, Siddhartha sat under the Bodhi tree, vowing to not get up until the truths he sought came to him, and he meditated until the sun came up the next day. He remained there for several days, purifying his mind, seeing his entire life, and previous lives, in his thoughts. During this time, he had to overcome the threats of Mara, an evil demon, who challenged his right to become the Buddha. When Mara attempted to claim the enlightened state as his own, Siddhartha touched his hand to the ground and asked the Earth to bear witness to his enlightenment, which it did, banishing Mara. And soon a picture began to form in his mind of all that occurred in the universe, and Siddhartha finally saw the answer to the questions of suffering that he had been seeking for so many years. In that moment of pure enlightenment, Siddhartha Gautama became the Buddha ("he who is awake").

Armed with his new knowledge, the Buddha was initially hesitant to teach, because what he now knew could not be communicated to others in words. According to legend, it was then the king of gods, Brahma, who convinced Buddha to teach, and he got up from his spot under the Bodhi tree and set out to do just that.

 

Thanks. We might also consider the Buddha's conception and birth.http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddha/a/birthofbuddha.htm

Twenty-five centuries ago, King Suddhodana ruled a land near the Himalaya Mountains.
One day during a midsummer festival, his wife Queen Maya retired to her quarters to rest, and she fell asleep and dreamed a vivid dream. Four angels carried her high into white mountain peaks and clothed her in flowers. A magnificent white bull elephant bearing a white lotus in its trunk approached Maya and walked around her three times.
Then the elephant struck her on the right side with its trunk and vanished into her.
When Maya awoke, she told her husband about the dream. The King summoned 64 Brahmans to come and interpret it. Queen Maya would give birth to a son, the Brahmans said, and if the son did not leave the household he would become a world conqueror. However, if he were to leave the household he would become a Buddha.
When the time for the birth grew near, Queen Maya wished to travel from Kapilavatthu, the King’s capital, to her childhood home, Devadaha, to give birth. With the King’s blessings she left Kapilavatthu on a palanquin carried by a thousand courtiers.
On the way to Devadaha, the procession passed Lumbini Grove, which was full of blossoming trees. Entranced, the Queen asked her courtiers to stop, and she left the palanquin and entered the grove. As she reached up to touch the blossoms, her son was born.
Then the Queen and her son were showered with perfumed blossoms, and two streams of sparkling water poured from the sky to bathe them. And the infant stood, and took seven steps, and proclaimed “I alone am the World-Honored One!”

Not exactly a virgin birth, but remarkable, nonetheless!

 

I believe I've had unexplainable experiences while in deep, trance-like states, and I don't worship Jesus. I think it's all about what's in your heart, and I don't think what's in your heart is dictated by your belief in any one religion. That's what angers me about Christianity; a lot of the time believers will say if you don't believe you've got a bad heart. But my conscience is very clear. I suppose Jesus might be a good way for you, personally, to self-examine and meditate upon things, however.

How do you explain passages like the one where Jesus says, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" then? If Jesus is inseparable from God, wouldn't it
follow logically that God would have mistakenly thought he had forsaken himself? Or do you not believe the Bible is inerrant either?

So in a sense you could say that you have the power to transcend Jesus. Your peace of mind isn't dictated by whether or not this person existed.

You don't have to literally believe that the Buddha sat under a tree and cast out an evil spirit in order to follow the teachings of Buddhism, do you? More than likely he was just another relatively enlightened, spiritually satisfied person people made up stories about. OR age old wisdom was passed down in the guise of a story about one man professing it all.

Are we using this thread to discuss whether or not one can truly call themselves a Buddhist if they don't believe in Buddha? What if there were people who professed a profound belief in Christ's words but didn't believe in Christ? Would it make sense for them to call themselves Christians?

 

happenings and answerings......

I have thought of this....think of the universe as one alive organism....and you one cell.....albeit very tiny and insignificant in the vastness of it all......still can summon help, as one cell in your body can in calling for an immune reaction to fight certain diseases, etc, or whatever it needs...I tend to think that everything is alive.....and all of the answers can be found in nature and in your own being.

energy

 

I certainly don't believe the Bible is inerrant. If you look at it historically, Old Testament and New, it seems to have been put together by a number of different writers with different agendas at different times for different audiences based on hearsay evidence that wouldn't be let into a courtroom. The passage that you mention is borrowed verbatim from Psalm 22 attributed to David. It appears in two of the four canonical gospels: Mark 15:34 and Mat. 27: 46. Why? Possibly because He said it. More likely to give Him something to say, to connect Him to the Old Testament and David, and to reinforce Mark's theme of Isaiah's suffering servant. Putting words in the mouths of protagonists was common practice of historians and biographers of the time. Like many later historians, they order their facts according to their understanding of the person they're dealing with, and include passages that bring out what they regard as relevant traits. Luke and John have Jesus saying other things, in keeping with their own understandings of Him. And if Bart Ehrman is right (How Jesus Became God), the bit about "If Jesus is inseparable from God" relates to later theology, first evident in the Gospel of John, the only Gospel in which He calls Himself that. Son of God was an honorary title given to King David, whose successor the Messiah was expected to be. Many of the earliest Christians thought Jesus was adopted by God as His son at the time of Jesus' baptism, and would not necessarily have divine attributes of omniscience. Gods at the time didn't have that characteristic, which medieval theologians conferred on them. Later theologians posited that in becoming incarnate, God imposed temporary restrictions on Jesus' omniscience. Whatever. This is the sort of detail that I regard as trivial.

What if there were people who professed a profound belief in Christ's words but didn't believe in Christ? Would it make sense for them to call themselves Christians?
I'm one of those, although as you know I believe that Jesus (and possibly the Buddha) were real people. "Christ' is a theological concept. I call myself Christian because it's the label that comes closest to describing my beliefs. Some of my friends will say they're not Christian but are followers of Jesus. That's fine for opening a theological discussion, but confusing in everyday interactions. I sometimes say "philosophical Christian", depending on who I'm talking to, but more often "Progressive Christian", which is pretty much the same thing. I've been influenced by Oklahoma pastor Robin Meyers' book Saving Jesus from the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus.

 

I view the Holy Spirit, Christ and God as the Holy Triumvirate.

Like Okie, I don't necessarily think everything that was put into Jesus's mouth by the authors in the KJV was actually said by Him.

As China has mentioned the Gospel of Thomas, I also find this specific source to be very interesting and informative. To me it speaks more of what (I think) Jesus Christ would have really said. As I've stated before I think the fact that there isn't solid, no-argument proof of His existence is intentional.

Just like one that seeks a transcedent state because they believe by faith this is even possible, that same type of faith is used when seeking answers and guidance when a science book isn't able to provide the truths one needs.

Furthermore, I believe that many of us, believers and non-believers alike, are provided with "proof" of a higher power...unfortunately many that have seen this proof will expend effort, time and significant energy trying to explain why and how it couldn't have been supernatural or from a higher power. Interestingly to me, often they still don't seem fully satisfied with the answers their studies and science provide.

.

 

Could you expand on that a bit? What do you mean in saying we're provided with proof?

 

Also, keep in mind what I stated regarding proof has to do with my thoughts on there being a higher power and that there is a Grand Plan (no coincidences)..

Ok my thoughts on what proof could be: When a friend and his child heard their recently deceased wife/mother call out their names, it both shocked them and comforted them greatly.The child has claimed that his mother comes at night sometimes to help him get to sleep and that she has told him she "lives in a good place" and that she "can always see him". After this, the father (my friend) has changed his belief system totally, is reading the bible, and going to bible study. I've also heard of others hearing their names called out by passed on loved ones, but often this would try to be explained away.

When someone dreams a dream that doesn't "feel like a dream" that gives answers they have been searching for.

When you meet your soul-mate after both of you are drawn to a place at a particular time, that neither person has been to before nor did either person really want to go there...they just felt an irresistable draw.

I know someone that had (and has) not placed his belief in God, although he didn't disbelieve. He was driving on snowy roads up north (NYC) and suddenly his car was spinning out of control heading toward a dump truck and other cars...he found himself crying out aloud "JESUS! JESUS!" The car straightened up and veered completely out of the way of all the oncoming vehicles, where he was headed. Just so you know...even after he told me this and he told me in a way that reflected a type of amazement, he still continues to look for other reasons (than his calling out for Jesus) as to why the car suddenly righted itself and he avoided collision.

A rainbow was put in the sky as a reminder that the earth wouldn't be destroyed by water again. Nobody knows a scientific reason why a rainbow appears...they can explain what it does and how it works, but not why it appears.

I'm not going to go into my own personal experiences right now, although I will be glad to later, if you want. These are all that are coming to me right now off the top of my head.

I'm going to take a rain check to come back later and tell more of what I consider proof(s) when they come to me. Morning time isn't my smartest time of the day.

 

I know the kind of thing you mean. And to the person who has such an experience it could well be like a proof or at least a confirmation. The trouble is, other people generally won't accept personal experiences as proof.

I'm not seeking proof BTW, but I wondered what you meant.

 

and I understand that - that other people generally won't accept personal experiences as proof - other people's experiences, that is.

But what if the personal experience is their's? Because that is what I'm speaking of...the many, many people that have their own personal experience/s and yet seem willing to go to almost any extent, embrace anything other than there is a supernatural explanation.

 

I don't have an answer to that. I am inclined to trust my own experiences, and I think maybe it's necessary to do so, or else what can one trust? I don't know why people who have some inexplicable thing happen to them want to explain it in mundane terms. Probably there are all sorts of reasons. Perhaps their peers are mainly atheists so they don't want to loose friends or upset them. Maybe it's out of a deep conviction that materialism is correct.

 

I've smoked DMT and have seen what has been described by others as "Hyper-Dimensional Machine Elves" which seemed like completely sentient entities and absolutely convincing in their authenticity while on the trip. There is no satisfactory explanation thus far for me in science, the general notion that Psychedelic drugs stirring up the subconscious does not really do it for me either. I experienced a far higher level of organization and complexity on these trips than what I have with LSD or Mushrooms, which I can kind of justify with the subconscious thing.

I have contemplated naturalistic explanations for such experiences, for instance that our visual processing mechanisms for objects have a layered system to them but even with that I keep the supernatural explanation in my back pocket, that these beings actually reside in some type of space that is only brought upon for humans from the intense mind altering affects of DMT or perhaps a few other powerful psychedelic experiences, both pharmacological and otherwise (I.E. near death).

So I am willing to consider the supernatural explanations in this instance but with that said, I have no aspirations of going around convincing others of the authenticity of such things and I especially am not attempting to use such aberrant and fleeting experiences to supersede consensual reality on the day in and day out of this life and influence laws, legislation, morals, education, so on and so forth. I would not support such actions even if there were a movement of people attempting to do so.

Even if science cannot explain such an experience currently, I still think it is by far the most efficient, capable, and insightful method to explaining reality.

 

I understand what you're saying there guerilla, and I don't disagree. In saying that I believe there are explanations for personal experiences explanable by supernatural or higher power means, I do not believe that trying to convince or force someone to believe as I do is the answer. I also do not believe that a movement to force others to believe in the supernatural should be supported.

Each person has to come to their own conclusion and their own beliefs.

I have nothing against science, and I believe one day there will be instruments to measure and analyze things that will explain more of this kind of thing, not less.

I do find it very off putting when people try their best to deny another person's experience because they don't agree with any supernatural explanation the "experiencer" feels is the answer.

 

Trying to force others to believe anything is a bad thing. And I'd say counter productive in many cases.

People have to decide for themselves without any coercion.