Defend the Second Amendment!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by WolfLarsen, May 29, 2014.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    No exactly on the gun issue but fun…



    [SIZE=11pt]Well how did you decide? To quote you “Well most of the Creationists I've talked to don't seem very reasonable”[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]And then you go on to say -[/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]But what is ‘harmonious’ and how do you decide what is ‘harmonious’? [/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]A racist can be consistent in their belief does that make them reasonable? [/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]LOL so what - many historical philosophers have been atheists, many lived their lives before Jesus was born. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]I’ve read many books on the subject and even more history books and that’s why I’m an atheist. [/SIZE]



    No I’m talking about faith, it is blind, because it is faith. No-one can prove the existence of any god only faith allows someone to believe they exist, it has to be blind to the fact that they cannot prove its existence.

    I believe the quote comes from Hebrews 11.1. The King James Bible translation is - “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”

    Well I can hope for fairies but that doesn’t mean they will appear, and if I have faith that there are fairies but I just can’t see them does that make them a reality?

    As one creationist analysis of this line comments - “We do not require scientific evidence to “prove” the existence of God, or justify our belief that what the Bible says is true”



    What creation? I know of hundreds of creation myths, the biblical myth is just one amongst many, do these people you talk of believe in any particular one and why?



    Millions of people have been murdered by Christians - have you never read any history – often because they were not Christian and at other times because they were not the ‘right’ type of Christian.

    The main reason why such ‘Christian’ behavior come to an end was the rise of secularism in Christen countries and the decline in the power and influence of the church.

    **

    Anyway

    I have no ‘faith’ in my theories I don't believe they are the truth and only the truth they're just what seems to fit in with what I’ve seen here… etc – I present them to see if they can stand and if something doesn’t stand I adapt it so it can or drop it.
     
  2. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    [SIZE=11pt]Old[/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]As I said before my opinion is based on the many, many conversations I’ve had here over the last 14 years, other conversations I’ve had in my life and things I’ve seen and read - which seems to be backed up by some statistical evidence. [/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]LOL so you are saying you have no counter argument?[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]I asked you if you have a rational and reasonable counter argument to my theories, you seem to be saying you don’t - so my theories would seem to stand.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]You can accept them or not, but it seems you are unable to refute them. [/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]You have many times, for example you force me to repeat myself by misquoting me or by repeating arguments that have been already covered. [I can give examples if you wish, but that would mean repeating things again] [/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]OK well let us come at this from the other direction – are you saying that you think I’m right? That you accept my theory and analysis as correct? [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Or are you saying you accept some but not all, if so which bit do you agree with? [/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]I’ve already asked you for some examples of where you think it doesn’t fit, so far you haven’t given any. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]**[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Ok lets recap –[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]You seem to be saying that you don’t think my ideas and theories on the US gun issue are wrong and that you have no rational or reasonable counter argument against them - is that correct? [/SIZE]
     
  3. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Yep
    I believe I already answered that when I, at the same time said, "[SIZE=11pt]If someone does not egregiously contradict themselves on a regular basis I consider them reasonable".[/SIZE]
    In a discussion as long as they do not; "[SIZE=11pt]egregiously contradict themselves on a regular basis" then they are being reasonable in the discussion. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]That does not mean I agree with them or that their beliefs are reasonable[/SIZE] when viewed against reality.
    It seems you are talking about the relatively new [SIZE=11pt]philosophers[/SIZE] and not the majority of the original [SIZE=11pt]philosophers that formed the basis of philosophy that I was talking about.[/SIZE]
    No, you are talking about what is called "blind faith" and is not faith at all.

    As to whether God's existence can proved, can you prove that anything exists? There are many who would argue that all that seems so real is maya, an illusion of the mind.

    So Guns don't exist they are all in your mind.
    Yes, you can hope for fairies if you wish but where is the substance, where is the evidence that the rest of that scripture calls for?
     
  4. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    By definition no one has ever been murdered by a Christian. Being a Christian means they are a footstep follower of the Christ. The Christ never murdered anyone and so that means that anyone who murders someone has stopped being a footstep follower of the Christ and thus is no longer a Christian.
    What church might you be talking about? If a church stops following the example of the Christ it can not be considered a Christian church.
    Great. Although I have found that many just give lip service to such concepts. They are not here to better understand the differing sides of a discussion but are only here to force others to bow before their pet theories whether those theories are good or bad.
     
  5. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    [SIZE=11pt]Old[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]So they are both reasonable and unreasonable at the same time? What’s been said is reasonable but what they are saying is not? [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]No I’m talking of faith [/SIZE]

    unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence” Collins English Dictionary.

    [SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]LOL so gods don’t exist (along with the rest of us) – this is a non answer, because you haven’t got an answer, you know there is no way to prove the existence of gods – so you pull out some bullshit like this. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt][/SIZE]
    , where is the evidence that the rest of that scripture calls for?

    Where is no substance or evidence for gods or fairies?


    Self serving bullshit – oh don’t look at those Christians they were bad Christians look at us we are real Christians – this is not been honest to yourself or others.

    [SIZE=11pt]Ok lets get back to the gun issue to recap –[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]You seem to be saying that you don’t think my ideas and theories on the US gun issue are wrong and that you have no rational or reasonable counter argument against them - is that correct? [/SIZE]
     
  6. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    I could help but notice that this does not answer the actual question I put to you; Would that be an objective or subjective opinion? and that this is just another of your cut and paste answers that does not fit what has been said to you.
    I have said nothing of the kind. Once again you fail to listen to what is said to you.
    When have ever said or even implied that? Your "theories" only stand in your closed mind, where you have build a wall around them so that no "[SIZE=11pt]rational and reasonable counter arguments" are allowed to get to them[/SIZE].
    [SIZE=11pt]**[/SIZE]

    Only in your mind, there are many here that have refuted your theories, not just me and yet you live in a world where you refuse to acknowledge it.
    Yep, just twisting your arm.
    What in the world are you talking about. You yourself said; "debate is the best way to thrash out ideas and see if they stand and you can’t have a debate without differing viewpoints" What has happened to that? To do that do you really believe that a person has to start from a viewpoint that I'm right and you're wrong? That kind of mindset closes your mind to what is being said to you and you fail to understand the other person's viewpoint because you are only interested in defending your ideas.

    So no, at this time I have drawn no definitive conclusions as to the validity of you pet theories.
    Really? Right at the beginning of this post I point out that your "answer" to my question does not fit and that is not the first time I have pointed out where your lackadaisical cut and paste "debate" style just doesn't fit what is being said to you.
    No, not even close. Will you ever bother to actually read what is said to you?
     
  7. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    You are not even trying are you?
    Look, he can quote from a dictionary but in common usage that definition is considered to be a description of what is called "blind faith"
    I've got plenty of answers but you are so full of yourself that there is no where for you to put the answers you ask for.
    You are like a small child that thinks that he if closes his eyes real hard so he can't see reality then reality will just go away.
    And if an identity thief steals your identity and steals all you own and maybe even commits crimes in your name, maybe murders someone using your name, what will you say to that? I bet you will be hoping that what you say about it won't be called "Self serving bullshit".
    I just answered this in the above post. Just read that. You're not going to do that are you?

    So here it is;
    You yourself said; "debate is the best way to thrash out ideas and see if they stand and you can’t have a debate without differing viewpoints" What has happened to that? To do that do you really believe that a person has to start from a viewpoint that I'm right and you're wrong? That kind of mindset closes your mind to what is being said to you and you fail to understand the other person's viewpoint because you are only interested in defending your ideas.

    So no, at this time I have drawn no definitive conclusions as to the validity of you pet theories.
     
  8. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    The answer is there - As I said before my opinion is based on the many, many conversations I’ve had here over the last 14 years, other conversations I’ve had in my life and things I’ve seen and read - which seems to be backed up by some statistical evidence.


    Ok so you’re saying that you don’t have a counter view and don’t have any real criticisms of them?


    The debate with you at least seems to be over so for the moment my ideas seem to stand
     
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  9. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Yes my statement does have the same level of condition. The condition being described is the perception of the need for guns. You can choose a gun for many reasons, maybe simply target practice for the sport of it, but if a gun is a matter of perceived need then it speaks to some level of insecurity, period. Why is the perception of need there, because there is a perception of needing to be more formidable in the face of your perceived desires or expectations of what might happen.



    I have no need to be insulting and I have no need to be less than forthright. If you find yourself insulted then condition would indicate that you have a fragile and uncertain ego that you think needs defense or can be wounded.

    I don't take offense at you calling my words babble speak. I understand it simply means that you don't get it. I know it is not my language that causes this because others in fact do understand me.

    You can be good at your practiced arguments but you really fall flat in understanding and manipulating concepts. I don't think it a lack of ability or potential but comes from the way you are applying your mind or the evidence you look for. You've built a wall around your understanding and your abilities to perceive called strong belief. You are not permitted by virtue of the concept of strong belief to entertain or accept new or different information because that would by definition be violating the strength of your beliefs.


    You can't argue for most historical philosophers either there winky. I call bull on your idea of your own capacities in regards to this whole thread.


    There are no partial truths.
    Truth is relative and truth is only relative to true terms.
    True terms are same, different, or purposeful.
    If truth is a qualification then no one qualifies.
    That is, is it the same, we can say yes or no. If it is not the same then it is different.
    That is it, there is no more honest or true distinction that can be made except to answer the question what is it for.
     
  10. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Stop your stupid tap dance and just answer the question. Do you consider your "opinion" to be subjective or objective?
    No.
    Your ideas only stand in your own mind but if you want to run away from the debate go ahead.
     
  11. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Then why do you do it?
     
  12. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    Peer review suggests you are out of your league. Some thing more to say there buddy?
     
  13. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    LOL yes I can read a dictionary and under faith it says - “unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence”

    That’s faith that is.



    What? – This is the old con of – I could answer but I chose not to but honestly I could answer if I wanted to – which is just more bullshit.



    Oh my you are a hoot I mean what the fuck are you on?

    I ask again - Where is the substance or evidence for gods or fairies?



    I’m just saying it seems awfully convenient to say that any Christian that does anything you think isn’t Christian isn’t a Christian.

    I prefer to call a spade a spade even if you would prefer to cal it a spatulous device for abrading the surface of the soil.
     
  14. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    You didn't read or understand what I said.

    You accuse. The obvious and logical response in the face of an accusation is to say no I didn't. So how do you prove I insulted, it can only be that you feel insulted. I don't insult, I use words to communicate.

    So you see you do not recognize the effects of your own thinking. That doesn't mean you can't. If you do good are you not rewarded?
     
  15. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    [SIZE=11pt]Old [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]I’ve given you the answer - As I said before my opinion is based on the many, many conversations I’ve had here over the last 14 years, other conversations I’ve had in my life and things I’ve seen and read - which seems to be backed up by some statistical evidence.[/SIZE]



    .

    [SIZE=11pt]Is that No I don’t have any counter view and don’t have any criticisms.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Or [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]No, I do? [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]If you do can you please present them because I’m not a mind reader.[/SIZE]



    [SIZE=11pt]There is no debate – you are not presenting anything to debate, you don’t seem to have any counter view to what’s been said or any criticisms of them. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]I’m not running away I’m waiting for something worthwhile to debate. [/SIZE]
     
  16. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    the kitty roca got his tongue...
     
  17. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Earlier you said this



    So I went to have a look and I can’t seem to find you or them doing so - If you know of them you must know where they are, so please could you either produce them or tell me where they are?
     
  18. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    And what does your dictionary say the definition of the word pi′stis is?
    No that is only what you want it to mean. Because the definition given to Christians at least a thousand years before your Collins English Dictionary even existed does fit what you want it to say.
    I just love people like you who have selective short term memories.
    Another fine example of your [SIZE=11pt]very rational and reasonable counter arguments I see.[/SIZE]
    I have never said that there is substance or evidence for fairies? That was you.

    As for substance or evidence for God, it is all around you. Every thing around you is proof of God, every house is constructed by someone, but he that has constructed all things is God or are you one of those that believe that houses construct themselves?

    As usual you you have failed to even acknowledge this;

    And if an identity thief steals your identity and steals all you own and maybe even commits crimes in your name, maybe murders someone using your name, what will you say to that? I bet you will be hoping that what you say about it won't be called "Self serving bullshit".

    I can only assume it is so you can once again fallaciously say that I [SIZE=11pt]have presented no rational or reasonable counter argument[/SIZE]s.

    Just another proof that your "rational or reasonable counter arguments" are all huff and puff with no substance.
     
  19. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    That a no, you still have not answered the question put to you, like I have already told you several times already.

    Seeing as you seem to have no ability to understand a question that is put to you once or twice, I will repeat it once again. That opinion, that continue to cut and paste over and over again, in your opinion is it objective or subjective.

    Perhaps, just so you might come to understand you are actually being asked a question, here it is again;
    You know that opinion that you described above will you continue to describe it further by saying whether it is an objective or subjective opinion?
    Well I've tried to get you to see beyond your closed mind but you're closed up inside there so tight that it makes a mockery of that whole debate/exchange of ideas bit you pontificated earlier.
     
  20. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    There none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    Not even including the counter arguments that others have put to you, in just the first eight pages of this thread I personally presented counter arguments to you in posts #85, #111, #132, #134, #225.

    Honestly, your continuing to say things like this just calls into question anything you have to say.
     

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