Are There Multiple Paths To God?

I don't want to get into a discussion about Islam as a religion once again.

As far as I can see, all the old religions have blood on their hands in one way or another. It's undeniable that Islam had the idea of holy war right from the start.Muhammed said that people who died in his jihad had gone straight to Allah Therefore, it's a kind of blueprint that can be taken up by today's fanatics. That's unfortunate.

 

The far majority of its followers see nothing in that 'blueprint'. That's fortunate. People have blood on their hands, not their ideology or religion.

 

Why are you so uncomfortable criticizing ideologies? It's really amazing to what length you will defend faiths which have pretty bleak opinions of you. What do you gain by defending it? What do you think you will lose if you don't?

I mean, you're defending Islam in the context of 9/11, a crime commited by muslims who believed in their very straightforward literal interpretation of islam.

 

He doesn't like be reminded of the reality of religion and their prime directives to take over the world.

But anyway, if there is an Abrahamic God, then there's hardly anyone who's prayed to him more than those flying that plane. Enlightenment straight from the holiest land on earth and religious text as clear as a war declaration. I'm sure nobody knows a more clear path to God. I know their fucked up heads were absolutely certain they were headed to super virgin pussy heaven.

What God wants, God gets. God help us all.

God wants rivers of blood and the smell of cooked death in the air.

 

Atheism is not a belief system anymore than adactyly (lack of fingers at birth) is a finger.

I'm realizing that the first step in any discussion like this is to absolutely hammer out our definitions from the get go, because sooooo many people just do not understand what atheism and agnosticism are.

For example, did you know it's possible to be both atheist and agnostic at the same time?

That would mean that you do not see evidence for the existence of an intervening deity, and you also hold the position that any knowledge about certain metaphysical claims regarding deities are fundamentally unknowable.

They are NOT equivalent terms along a spectrum, with "faith" at the other end. These are mutually independent categories. Faith has its own spectrum, atheism has its own spectrum, and agnosticism has its own spectrum.

 

Higher and lower are subjectively qualifying statements about being and do not address being fundamentally. They are comparisons useful only for making abstract arguments not for determining any exact substance.

 

Atheism is not per se a belief system. It can simply be apathy toward religion. When atheism becomes self conscious, it is a belief, and when it tries to defend itself, it is on the way to becoming an ideology. You and Relaxx appear to be examples of atheist ideologues. You've both articulated a fairly coherent set of beliefs and values to the effect that : God is a ridiculous idea, religion is undesirable and evil, the world would be a better place without it, humans are capable of leading full and moral lives without the benefit of belief in God, and science will make us better and solve most or all of the mysteries that religion formerly claimed as its special magisterium. In fact, you both appear far more rigid and dogmatic than many Christians, Jews and Muslims I know, who are content to live and let live, and to go about their lives without trying to fix other people. Anyone acquainted with the history of ideas will recognize familiar patterns of dogmatism here, and may entertain a reasonable suspicion that, given enough power, persons holding such ideas could easily embark on the courses of action you condemn so vociferously in religions.

 

We all have blood on our hands to some extent. Whether or not it is spilled in vain is another matter.

 

All those "ideologies" you listed, are not atheism. They are many things, but they are not atheism, because atheism is only the lack of belief in intervening deities.

I also will not take it as an insult that I am not a person who can "live and let live"'; I think that's "New Age" for cognitive and moral cowardice.

I care too damn much about the people around me and this planet to not take an active interest in the delusions held by my brothers and sisters.

It makes not a lick of difference or moral strength that someone is willing to think "Eh, whatever. I have my beliefs about how I'm going to heaven and that's all that matters". Such a person is someone I would not hold in esteem, or trust with anything serious.

What you describe as a virtue I see only as apathy, weakness of will, and not having done their homework.

 

You have previously written that 'a path' is a delusion because humanity is going nowhere . A philosophy is
very much like space : it's as far as you can see . I see that , no , you don't have to go anywhere . Then also ,
and more distantly , that you will not be left behind .
you will not be left behind

 

Here is my second response:

Actually Mr.Writer you are somewhat like I was back in the 80’s. Perhaps a bit more determined and closed minded in resolve. I don’t know about you, but I spent my teenage years trying to find a place for me religion-wise. I was too individualistic and rebellious to fall for any cults. And the more I explored any religion it was just not for me----somewhat cult-like if you will. I had my criteria as you said—fairly strict ideals of what I thought a religion should be. I certainly did not want to be fooled or manipulated. The biggest thing that I was looking for, therefore, was proof-----a proof that there was truth behind it.

By the mid 70’s I realized that institutions just weren’t for me. By the 80’s I resigned myself to the possibility that finding proof was impossible. So like any other baby boomer who listened to Yippy co-founder, Jerry Rubin, I gave up my search for meaning and focused on money and power.

Are you really?

Because you make a pretty convincing argument that you have already closed that door. In fact, up to this point, I was thinking that you were committing another fallacy—an argument from incredulity----basically the fallacy based on the concept that, ‘it is not true simply because I believe it is not true,’ or, ‘I can’t believe it, so it is not true.’

It seems to me, and this is coming from experience, that if you are more intent on arguing that there is no proof of God, then you really don’t need that proof in your life. Which is the same as to say that you really aren’t open to it. Maybe your trip is to go through life without a god in it.

If you want proof of god, or more precisely, the spirit world, there are ceremonies to attend. If you can find a Lakota, or Dakota (i.e. Sioux) Medicine Man who performs yuwipi ceremonies then you will see proof. Though some yuwipis are more powerful than others.

But a yuwipi is not a show. It is not performed for people who need proof. And it is certainly not something for you to go to and balk at. A yuwipi is performed for someone, usually several people, who are in need of miracles---health, or anything else where someone is desperate for help. It is a very serious ceremony and everyone that attends is going there to pray for the people in need and for the medicine man as such ceremonies are very draining on him. In fact I have seen Medicine Men kick people out before the ceremony---people that were not there for serious reasons and women on their moon (menstruating---not because it is dirty, but because it brings its own energy)---and this is probably without them even knowing them or talking to them---they just knew.

But if you attend a yuwipi, you will hear, feel, and/or see all kinds of spirits. Animal spirits, old mythical spirits, relatives, and ghosts. The one dominant theme you will see is rattles moving around the room giving off sparks. Other than the rattles, it is up to spirit what will be shown to you. There are no wires, hidden walls, hidden speakers, contraptions under the floor or anything else. One time a location was needed last minute to do a yuwipi and so we did it in my basement. The only preparation was to move all the furniture, remove all the light bulbs, and to have the windows and doors covered with tarps, or thick black plastic.

But if you choose that path to find proof----it really takes you down the rabbit hole. Imagine in our modern times, looking for a proof of God, and then trying to understand how animal spirits could manifest? Then again, before I even had an opportunity to experience such things it seems like I went through a process where my mind was increasingly opened up----starting with the very strange healing about 20 years ago of my stepdaughter by a peasant farmer in the Philippines who simply wanted a gift of tobacco in return (And speaking of mental illness---he healed her of a mental breakdown, which was unusual in a 9 year old, but which several doctors told us she would most likely never be healed of, and most likely would need institutionalization just to achieve any improvement.) That showed me that reality was not as simple as I had determined, but I needed more. There were years of interesting events followed by denials and rationalizations, but each time it was a little harder. Then finally it reached a point where I could not explain it, as hard as I tried.

But there are many paths----one is not exclusive to another-----and this is what religion needs to understand, what man needs to understand as he deals with the Post-Modern crisis. It is like the indigenous people understand-----if everything is sacred, then how do we step out of that sacred. We can be out of balance with it, but we can never be out of it. An atheist who walks in a good way is just as good and worthy of blessings as the most Jesus-like Christian.

I will say this about religion, and it was actually a Jewish person that pointed it out to me, it allows people to connect with the sacred without all the consequences, the obligations, responsibilities, and costs. It is kind of like a parent-child relationship. After all, you let someone else intercede for you—a priest, a nun, a preacher, rabbi, guru… etc. We let them follow the path, and expect them to be righteous twenty-four seven. Are there really angels and devils and supernatural forces greater than man? We’ll let the clergy deal with all of that while we lead a normal life tucked into everyday physical reality. We’ll let God talk to the televangelist, and if we are being fooled and god didn’t really tell him to tell us to send him money, well, at least we don’t have to deal directly with god in such a way…

One of the sayings that you will find in the Native American Church is that the White Man goes into his churches to pray to God, while the Indian goes into his tipi to talk with God. This is how it is with indigenous traditions the world over. You deal with god and the spirits directly. You don’t even have a devil to blame things on. If you walk around with a bad attitude towards others, it may affect them, but it will definitely affect you. If you focus on the negative, you will certainly have a negative life. If you worry, your worries will shape your reality. Everything has a cost---not a monetary cost, but a cost just the same. This is perhaps true of any spirituality or mysticism---even the made up ones (Sorry Wiccans---but, in truth, the church long ago destroyed those traditions and truths you try to emulate, and much of it has been lost. I’m not saying that there is no power or truth in it, just that it is---recreated, so to speak.)

 

What about a non-intervening deity? The 18th century deists thought god just wound up the universe like a watch and then let it run. Surely the term atheism would also mean lack of belief in that or some similar kind of concept of god?

 

I disagree. Atheism is not a question of knowledge; and a lack of belief is still a determination of belief. If you ask an atheist why he is an atheist and he answers, "Because I know there is no god," then the answer would not be an issue of knowledge, but the same fallacy of logic I referred to earlier (i.e the fallacy of not believing there is no god because there is no proof of god, or, likewise, believing in god because there is no proof against god.)

Take a different individual who states, "I don't believe in any religion, and I don't believe in god, therefore I am an atheist." If you press them further about why they do not beleive in religion or god, it boils down to the point that they believe there is no god and they believe there is no valid reason to believe in a religion. In both cases there is no way for them to know whether god exists or doesn't exist, so even if they try to escape the whole idea of belief----it is still a matter of belief. Belief is a given.

Then there is the example of an atheist who follows, for example, the existentialism of Sartre and has a more complex belief system based on the philosophy that if there is no god, then we are here alone, and therefore it is up to us to make it a great place for all mankind. This is a common sentiment among the atheists I know----it is a belief system.

In the end, no matter how simplistic (I don't believe, and I don't care, and I'd rather focus on sports), or how complex, (I have a whole philosophy based on the non-existence of god) it is still based on some kind of existential leap of faith---it is still a belief, and therefore a belief system.

 

So red man path to god better than white man's. Sorry wiccans you are posers. It is a good thing you have a firm grip on the genuine article. What you describe of the rituals you attended is called conjuring or invocation. Such things do not suggest the existence of god but speak to the power of the mind and the power of common focus. Why do you have the sense of having personal allies in the spirit world, because we all have our own sense of recognition and the forms of these things appear in a way that is symbolically relevant to you. They are all manifestations of a suggestive gestalt. My spirit world consists of light a sense of space and a clear brow.

Everything has a cost? All exchanges of energy are equal to themselves. You say you don't even have the devil to blame yet you appeal to the gods directly. You still have the spirits to deal with, just because you don't call them devil doesn't change that fact.

If you worry your worries will shape your reality? Perhaps events unfold in way that you find yourself relieved.

All in all a pretty bombastic and tedious exposition.

 

What is the difference between a world model and belief providing you adhere to a world model?

 

Spoken like a true irreligious fanatic. My way or the highway. Bet you're lots of fun to be around. If atheism is simply an absence of belief, what makes you so sure your absent belief is right and that those who believe are wrong?

 

Yes---you are right---especially about the spirit world proving god---I meant to clarify that more than I did (I am having a heck of a time posting anything----with nonstop interruptions and demands from all kinds of people----I currently do not have an office (too many kids moved back home temporarily) and I am just too available to everyone-----even to work on my books...)

I have to laugh though-----you caught me in one of the very fallacies I pointed out to Mr.Writer---except for one key thing---which I should have given far more clarification of: I have said over and over that spiritual things are an issue of subjective proof not an objective proof. For example, I cannot use my own proof of god to argue that god is real to anyone else, I cannot use it as an objective proof or apply it to everyone. On a subjective level different people have different levels of proof before they make that existential leap of faith. For me, I needed a very stringent proof that I could not find any way to rationalize. I was given that. And it has been validated over and over ever since (including through ceremonies such as these). I would argue that anyone who goes through a yuwipi ceremony and leaves believing it was a trick, is basing that on false assumptions (I have heard such arguments). On the other hand, I have taken numerous people to their first yuwipis and they have always left dumbfounded, and sometimes with lessons and gifts per se' from spirit they didn't expect, or ask for.)

Again you have to understand, there is far more to the yuwipi ceremony than the phenomena I have described. Science could try to rationalize it as mass hallucination, but then each person experiences the ceremony in a unique way. Or the power of mind or collective consciousness----but even that falls short---there are things that happen before and after the ceremony that are also very strange and mysterious---in connection to prayers, significant spirits and so forth----even weeks, months, or longer before and after.

I wrote in another thread last year, for example, about when my wife and I asked for a yuwipi, and how, among other things, 7 days before the ceremony, an elk appeared in my backyard----at the tree where I had my own tobacco ties. (In the Native ways things happen in 7's and 4's----the 7 sacred directions and the 4 sacred winds.) I then provided the link to the news report on the local news station that talked about the elk---which proceeded from my house to my friend's house (who coincidentally participates in these ceremonies), 6 or 7 doors down the street, and he happened to be in the backyard when it jumped into his yard, and then jumped the fence into a school yard leaving a gift of fur---which I now carry in a small medicine pouch. Soon after the school yard was surrounded by game wardens, local police, City animal control officers, TV news crews and onlookers. Somewhere in the school yard, this 8' bull elk disappeared and was not sighted again. The News article doesn't say it disappeared, but simply says, "Authorities hoped that the elk found its way back to the wilderness." (It’s at www.9news.com---and just do a search for elk in Arvada----it should still be archived.) Elk are just not something you would ever see in my neighborhood. This is only one of many things that happened around that yuwipi. I recorded it as much as I could---a good 40 pages of material, and most of it all around the ceremony, but over the past year many things have continued to happen directly resulting from that ceremony. But no matter how much I share of that ceremony, would it really matter to anyone else as proof? How many people would really believe that the elk was there for me and the ceremony---even after I were to explain why the elk was significant, and what meaning it brought to me, and how it related to other things I had done in the past-----it was not meant for anyone but my wife and I.

Take another example of a yuwipi that happened up on a South Dakota reservation years ago. A young woman was killed and the family was, naturally, heartbroken. An Indian was arrested and charged with the murder and the family was fairly certain he didn’t do it. They asked a medicine man for a yuwipi, and in the course of the ceremony the spirit of the daughter entered in. The parents were able to hug and hold her---yes, hug and hold, you are in spirit yourself during a yuwipi---they were able to say their goodbyes. More importantly, they asked the girl what happened, and she explained that two white boys had raped and killed her, how and where it happened, where tire tracks of their pickup truck was still molded into the mud, and what the license plate of the truck was. This information was turned over to the police with considerable prodding. (They were reluctant to investigate without a rational explanation as to where the information came from.) But when they did, they found evidence of the crime at the site, the truck was tracked down with the license plate number and the tire tracks matched. It wasn’t long after that that one of the boys confessed and the other one then confessed too.

How many people can experience such things---see it, hear it, feel it, live it, and not leave convinced that the spirit world is real. We can argue that they are basing it on a fallacy, but it is meant for them, and it suits their criteria, and even if there is an existential leap of faith, it is their proof and for them it is very real, even if they can’t turn around and use it to prove to their friends who did not experience it. There are things in the universe that science just cannot explain. And there are probably quite a few people who will make the jump from the existence of a spirit world to the existence of god. But again, it is a subjective choice----and it provides meaning for them.