Turning the other cheek

One of my main criticisms of c/anity is that the moral code it seeks to propound is unrealistic, counter intuitive, and is actually totally ignored by the majority of xtians.


Take the injunction to 'resist not evil' and 'turn the other cheek'.

Just today, we have seen the USA, a purportedly xtian nation unleash more bombs on poor little Somalia, in the interests of course, of 'defending our way of life'. At the same time, the person responsible for this act of war proclaims himself a follower of jesus, and head of the most xtain country on earth.

That's one example then of the utter failure of xtian so called ethics.

And on a smaller scale, what on earth are xtians on these forums doing defending themselves, and even being personally insulting to those who criticize?
It is blatantly obvious that they are not actually following christ's injunctions, and therefore I wonder if they can be classed as anything more than "christians in quotation marks"?

It is illogical that xtians aren't allowed to defend themselves, and deep down they know it's true, hence they ignore jesus commandment. Trouble is they still seek to take a high handed moralistic attitude.
It just won't wash friends.

The thing is insane - had we adopted xtian values in the 1930's and 40's I can only assume that my country would have been under the heel of Nazism for the last half century.

I also see a distinct lack of cheek turning when it comes to an actual attack on 'god's country'.

And whilst ignoring the main moral injunctions, they actually pick up on obscure and otiose so called prophecies in an attempt to put themselves at the forefront of 'god's plan'. You know who I mean.....

Some might argue that christ's commands set a standard, which although hard to attain, is nonetheless possible, and is something we have to aim toward.
But for how long? 2.000 years and we're really no further ahead in terms of cheek turning. In fact, you could make a serious case out that the xtian nations are the most aggressive and warlike on the planet, given the number of wars in which they have engaged during just the last 2.00 years or so.

Thoughts??

 

You're allowed to defend yourself brother. When he said "turn the other cheek" The Lord was speaking on revenge. That's why he started off talking about "an eye for an eye". Later in the Bible he tells his disciples to get a sword. The Bible also PLAINLY states there's a time to kill. You're not allowed to MURDER people. Which of course is way different from having to defend yourself.

We are taught to be kind. We are taught to be forgiving. Just loving people. We are to pray for our enemies. If they attack us though we're not to just allow it.

 

First of all you understand that Somalia has not had an elected government for the last 15 years, and has been ruled by Islamic radicals who want to put to death anyone who doses not become an Islamic believer. Perhaps that is ok with you, because it is more to your liking to attack Christians than it is to attack Islamic murdering radicals.

Here again you show your obvious ignorance of the Biblical text, stating the verse where Jesus states we should resist not evil and turn the other cheek. When Jesus said this, He was not telling Christians how to live, He was speaking to the jews and telling them how perfect they would have to be if they wanted to get to heaven by earning it through the works of the law. This was stated during the Sermon on the Mount. The Jews knew by the time Jesus was finished with His sermon that no one could be that good. And that was the point Jesus was trying to make to them. That is why the Bible tells you that no flesh shall be justified by the works of the law.

What won't wash is your mis-quoteing of Scripture, and trying to force fit the written Word to fit your attack against the Christian faith.

Perhaps your pulling out of context this verse would be to your liking to, if America turned the other cheek and did not oppose Hilter. When you are sitting in comfort it is so easy to judge the actions of those who have gone before you. If America had not gone to war against Hitler all the British today would be speaking German, and all the Jews on earth would of been killed off and anyone else Hilter did not like. Is that the kind of world you want to live in? The whole point of this is you don't know the first thing about Christian values, yet you come here trying to pull verses out of contex to try and support your attack on the Christian faith.
The Bible tells Christians that if possile to live at peace with all people, yet when there are those who want to blow up your ships, destroy your government buildings, fly planes into your skyscrapers, then you have to act.
Only a fool would sit by and watch the carnage continue. And to suggest that the Bible has told us not to oppose this kind of evil, is not valid or Biblical.

 

Well ya know Jesus clearly said in the Sermon on The Mount 'Blessed are the PEACEMAKERS". Jesus also said that his followers would be know by their fruits.


gw Bush is a liar,warmonger,thief, and he covets his neighbors oil so therefore he is NOT a Christian!

btw: His economic policies favor the rich in direct violation of James Chapter 2.

 

Jesus was burying people under the Law.

You are telling me you could not stand by while someone steals your coat, slaps you in the face,
and,
NOT ONLY will you let them but you will offer them your other cheek to slap AND give them your shirt too?

I mean, I honestly want to ask anyone in here if they seriously can tell me they could do that?
Im asking you too BlackBill.

Anyone?

 

Well you know, none of us are perfect. And if you believe a warmonger is one who believes in defending their country, then maybe Bush is a warmonger. Yet perhaps a warmonger is one who would just sit by, and let evil men make there plans, until a bigger war is unavoidable. Or perhaps a warmonger is one who would just let others kill the innocent without lifting their hand to protect them. G.W. Bush, was the first president who signed the ban on late term abortions which would stop the killing of thousands of children. No other president ever stood up for the innocent like G.W. Bush. Perhaps you support dictators who gas and kill their own people. Perhaps you supported Iraq giving aid or money to the relatives of human bombers who would blow themselves up with the hope of killing as many Jews as they could. Perhaps you supported Iraqs use of shreading machines which they would put human beings in, that would rip their bodies apart, or perhaps you supported the government of Iraq when they would feed their enemies children to dogs to teach their rivals a lesson. It appears to me, the only evil you see is that of G.W. Bush. Islamics and Moslems can kill and hurt as many people across the globe as they want, and all you can do is point to Bush? You must be either wareing blinders, or living in a box. I think the real evil in this world are those who would sit by and watch the innocent murdered, and never try to stop it. Yet, they would mock those who would.

 

I certainly won't stand by whilst I get screwed over by others. If someone asks me for help I will usually do what I can. If I am attacked, I will defend myself with whatever force is needed.

This is reality. Allowing others to just stomp all over you is mere stupidity.
If we all took jesus words literally, we'd soon cease to exist as a spieces.
To quote W.S.Burroughs, 'would you offer violence to a well intentioned virus'?

I said that I think xtian so called ethics are wrong. So don't expect me to be governed by them. Esp. when so-called followers of jesus clearly ignore them as it siuts their purposes.

That is a cop out. I think it's you who fails to understand.

Also in the later part of your post you say

The bible doesn't mention aircraft, as it was to be another 2,000 odd years before their invention, and jesus or his contemporaries had no notion that flight for humans was possible. Had xtians succeeded in their attempts at repression of science, they wouldn't exist now.

 

Bush is simply a moron. And Blair is a moron of a different type, niether has any moral standing as far as I'm concerned.
I don't expect America to take 9/11 lying down - but since it's supposedly an xtian nation, you might have thought the initial respose would be to at least seek to understand why 9'11 happened, and perhaps to try to resolve it throught talk, rather than a foolish war which can't be won and which will probably end in humiliation and disaster.
I say this not because I believe in turning the other cheek to what is even worse than c/anity, ie Islam, but because I genuinely don't believe that war will solve this issue.

In the UK too we had the tube bombings - my response to that would be to seek to eliminate the spread of Islam in british society, rather than facilitating it as our current 'goverment' is doing.
I don't believe our involvement in Iraq did other then make us a higher priority target for these evil fanatics.

 

The Bible is full of self-contrdictions. But 'resist not evil' does sound to me like 'resist not evil'. No doubt there are many, many verses in the 'good book' which actively encourage violence - and even mutilation of fallen enemies.
Wierd how xtians take some bits of the bible literally - ie the creation myths etc, yet seek to 'interpret' stuff which is inconvenient for them.
Point this out and you get told 'you don't understand'.

 

Why would you ask a question you think you know the answer to? Resist not evil means means engage everyone with compassion. Again don't pursue revenge if someone wrongs you. Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloak for a sword. When asked if a certain number of swords is enough he says yes. Why would he tell them it's alright to have swords?

As far as how we 'interpret' things there's a reason. You need to take things into FULL context. Also, if things seem to contradict themselves if you look a little deeper they don't. None of this matters though because this isn't what you want to hear or choose to ever believe.

 

If 'resist not evil' means to engane everybody with compassion, then really it only underlines my criticism that c/anity has been, and continues to be a complete flop, as xtians have failed to do that through 2,000 years, and continue to do so to this day.

It's not a question of what I want to hear. I don't have any preference. I am just stating my own views. My view is that c/anity is a dangerous and extremely limited world view, which is incapable of doing anything in these times other than be a cause of division on one hand, and hinderance to social and scientific progress on the other. It is basically a negative and anti-life cult which has shown itself over and over again to be nothing but hypocrisy and a convenient tool of control.
As I pointed out, what is supposedly the most xtian nation on earth, has over the last 5 years started 2 separate wars. I have seen no attempt whatsoever to engage alquaeda with compassion. (not that I think necessarily it would do any good, as Islamics are equally as pernicious and perhaps even more so than xtians)
If jesus said it is ok to have swords - and it seems that even here there is equivocation, then he was wrong - it is that simple. But with a sword, you can only do limited harm. When it comes to WMD do you think he'd say they were ok too?

 

Think of Christianity as a path. Most walk the path with faith in their destination and, more importantly, with kindness and respect for themselves and their fellow travelers.

Others stand in the middle of the path, blocking the way, making a lot of noise and trouble for others, and even traveling against the flow of traffic. This doesn't mean the path is bad. That would be as illogical as saying a freeway is bad because a wasted celebrity drove the wrong way on one, or as unreasonable as saying all music is bad because some people are tone deaf.

Some "Christians" ARE merciless and destructive. Some "Geniuses" are unaware of their ignorance. Some believe they are free in a bigger prison.

Some are just observant for its own sake.

Peace and Love

 

Same here.
I would strongly suggest that the same would be true for all of his listeners at that time.

It always helps to find the context and in this case its essential because Jesus is a Rabbi speaking to Jews.
They are all under what is called 'The Law'.
Jesus begins to 'bury people' under the Law by taking it to its ultimate conclusions.
Oh and..
If you think the 'turn the other cheek' is too hard to live by, just imagine the looks on their faces when he informed them of this one;
"Whoever looks at a woman with lust in his heart has commited Adultery"
and
"Whoever hates his brother is already guilty of MURDER "

So lets not just stop at the 'turn the other cheek' thing here.
Lets get all of these in there!
Then see how well we do?

You cant do it.
I cant do it.
None of the people listening could do it.
As you live your life you realise just how many times you will not be able to carry out those standards.
So,
You got nowhere to go, nowhere to hide - except to Christ.

And this my friends is just one of the reasons why Jesus was a brilliant teacher.

 

I don't think it desirable though that we carry out this stuff. It is a biological impossibility for many men for instance not to 'lust after' certain women. There is nothing inherently wrong with that - I can't say that I see it as a sin.
It's more a reflection of the judeo-christian-islamic idea that the 'flesh is sinful'.
There is a marked contrast to the pagan notion that the 'flesh' and sexuality is something we should celebrate.

But my main point is the hypocrisy of those who preach stuff like this, and actually don't enact it - whether that's because they won't or can't is irrelevant to that particular argument.
Given the tremendous errors of xtians over the centuries, it's actually quite hard to see jesus as a great teacher. You would expect the pupils of a great teacher to be quite smart, and learn the lessons. You can hardly say that of xtians through the ages.
Rather, I think the whole thing is extremely misleading and based on entirely false ideas about reality and the nature of human existence.

 

I'm not sure if you listen at all, but when Jesus said to resist not evil He was speaking to the Jews. I will repeat this again for the third time. Jesus was telling the Jews how perfect they would have to be if they wanted to get to heaven by following the works of the law. This was not something Christians were to follow, this was directed at the Jews. Christ was trying to get the Jews to understand that to get to heaven they would have to live lives that exceeded the law. And once the Jews understood that, then they understood that NO ONE COULD BE THAT GOOD. And that was the point Christ was trying to make. And that is why the Bible tells us, NO FLESH SHALL BE JUSTIFIED BY THE WORKS OF THE LAW.
Christians are not an anti life cult because it has been Christians who have been on the front lines to help the down and out and the poverty stricken from day one. IT IS THIS WORLD THAT HAS IMBRACED MASS MURDER BY ABORTION, WHICH HAS KILLED SO MANY THAT THE WAR DEAD NUMBERS ARE LAUGHABLE WHEN YOU COMPARE THE NUMBERS.
The Bible tells us, that IF it is possible, live at peace with all men. And that is a BIG IF. AND I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW, IF YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO SIT DOWN WITH RADICAL ISLAMICS AND PEACE WILL BE SECURED, YOUR DREAMING. Islamics will sit down when every man woman and child is worshipping Allah, and the rest of the Christians are dead.

 

It does not require interpretation, what it requires is a basic understanding of the Bible. It requires a basic understanding of the Old and the New Testaments. It requires a basic understanding of living under the Law, and living under Grace.
What's sad is to see people who come on this fourm who have little or no knowledge of the Bible, and then try to point out what is wrong with it, when they themselves don't even have a clue as to what the Book is even about.

 

You really think your own understanding is the only one don't you?

You say it isn't about interpretation, then you interpret it to mean all manner of things which aren't in the text but accord with your own limited personal subjectivity.

Most people who call themselves xtians would, I am certain, maintain that the sermon on the mount is aimed at xtians and seeks to instill in them moral values.
That is how the bible is generally understood.
Either that, or most of the xtians I've met have been deliberately misleading.

Why all the medieval and renaissance art depicting the beatitudes etc? Surely you don't imagine it was done for the jews. Or perhaps you think the people who did it weren't xtian? That would come as no surprise.

 

In this particular passage we see the implication of the 'luster' being married.
(well obviously for the adultery part of this to be said.)

So yeah, you could take from this that the 'lusts of the flesh' are definately not celebrated when they over-ride loyalty, commitment etc.
As for 'sexuality',
The marriage bed is considered honourable by Jesus.

Anyways.. this really could be another topic to itself because there are some interesting and important points on sexuality from a Christian point of view for sure.

Well you are getting directly to the very core of this particular passage and proving yourself a great student.
Yes, exactly its true that its irrelevant whether or not its because they 'cant or wont'.
Jesus aimed right for that.
In further agreement you point out the hypocrisy of those who cant fulfill it.

You got it!
You are further ahead than half the Christians I know when it comes to understanding this teaching by Jesus!!

You dont believe this.
Throughout the centuries, Christianity has been teaching people about love, kindness, charity, etc and its followers benefit from that.
As well as those around them.
I think what you might be looking for is the glass being 'half empty' when really Im grateful for the improvements I do see in the lives of believers.

But, you dont realy believe there is some sort of 'evil christianity' or that as any sort of rule its giving 'negative' effects.
You just dont.

 

Altough no doubt that is true, I actually think you're trying to patronize me here. I have indeed wasted much time in the past on this particular cultus, and no doubt assimilated a certain amount of knowledge about it. I have also looked into many other spirityual paths, and other than islam, my conclusion is that c/anity is on the very lowest level.

I assure you that I certainly do believe this. As far as I'm concerned, it has been nothing but a curse. Any good that has come out of it is by far outweighed by the negatives.
It really isn't true that xtians have been teaching people to love for centuries - more instilling in them an irrational fear and a negative attitude towards life,and of course, traumatizing each new generation with foolish notions of 'original sin' and the somewhat nasty and bloody symbol of the man nailed to a tree.
If you need that - ie a man nailed to a tree to make you feel good or give you a feeling you're saved, you have my comiserations. It is sick. And utterly irrelevant in terms of any real personal development, although I know that's not on the agenda for xtians.

 

OK - so start a thread about sex and c/anity if you want. It could be quite amusing. If you do, I'm sure I for one would have something to say.