Tracey 'talentless' Emin at it again

Right on sistah! The tailor who managed to sell the emperor an invisible set of clothes was, of course, an artist and a genius. Good luck to her.

 

So we're respecting someone simply on the grounds that there are people stupid enough to fall for her bullshit? Hey, respect due to Hitler for being smart enough to make all those people go along with his evil plans!

 

What a pile of utter shite....

 

Fuck it... let's open this one right open...


I think the problem here lies in what we expect of Art and the artists who produce it...

I'm somewhat saddened by the view which seemsto suggest that art should still maintain the form that it held way back in the times of Neo-classicism or Romanticism... a reaslistic representation of life that shows craftsmanship and artistic talent (whatever that is)... and... for those pretty pictures to be shown in nice galleries or to be framed nicely and hung a wall in our homes... an attitude that strikes me as being resolutely old fashioned...

Fuck me... if we thought the same way about medicine or the sciences, we would still have leeches attatched to our bollocks...

What is the point of art?... if the point of art is merely to produce something that looks nice, then it deserves to die because it then becomes redindant and pointless...

Art must be a reflection of the society in which it is created... yeah, we may despise Emin's art because we view it as pretty empty but surely it is very much symbolic of the time in which it is created?...

Fly...

 

Nicely argued, Sal. Very impressed with your towering intellect.

 

As I've said a number of times, I don't dislike her art because it's modern art, or because it's installation art, or because I'm attached to some classical idea of what does or doesn't qualify as art.... I dislike her art because I think it's shite.

One thing I will say about installation art though is that it does make it easier for talentless people to masquerade as artists. If Emin's a real artist, then so are we all. Now that's a concept with which I have no problem, but it would certainly underline the point that she has no inherent talent.

 

It is actually quite impressive the way he managed to do that, yeah. A very, very talented man.

 

And obviously this is something that I cannot argue against... you have your opinion... and I have mine... however, I may be worth pursuing why you think it is shite because this may unveil a your attitudes towards art in general...

But this still implies a necessary equation between craft and art... that something is only of artistic worth if it is created by somebody who ia able to apply a certain level of skill in the craft of making that particular object, whether it is a painting or a sculpture or whatever... i had somehow thought that photography would have blown this assumption away, particularly now in the digital format whereby the expense and technicality of setting up a darkroom and learning how to develop film and print images has now been completely removed... however, in photography, the balance is still placed very much upon the quality of the end produce... but, as a side point, it is interesting to see how technology has the ability to remove an elitest enclave and open up an artistic meritocracy...


The thing about installation art... I know, I was doing it in the late 80s (oh hark at me!!)... is that the balance shifts away from the end product and more towards the process of creating it... actually, it becomes more about the idea... the statement... the questioning... about the nature of the relationship between artwork and audience... between artist and audience... between artist and society...

It is more complicated than... here is something I have created, I hope you like how it looks...

Fly...

 

Well he almost managed establish a German empire from the ruins of WWI, so I wouldn't dispute he was talented. I was questioning whether we should respect him for that.

 

I think it's shite because nothing she does displays any creative originality that I can discern. Worse than that, none of it is even particularly striking. What's to like? I fail to see any worth or merit in anything that she does. As I've said previously, I'm quite happy to accept that it's art, but only if we work from a definition that's broad enough to encompass virtually anything - and by that definition, we're all artists.

That's a bit unfair. Nowhere did I say or imply that. That's not a view that I'd ever subscribe to. I've said repeatedly that I dislike her work because it's shite, not because I have any fundamental objection to modern/installation art.

 

Actually I think it said it all really....

 

Well if you mean it said "Sal's making childish comments instead of rationally explaining why he disagrees with something", then yes, it did indeed say it all. Just out of interest, is there any particular reason why you're taking a bad attitude with me? I only expressed a fucking opinion.

 

Well... the idea of art being judged by creative originality is a very western idea.. if you look at certain cultures, the ability of the artist is judged by the ability to use traditional forms that have been passed down from generation to generation...

I'm very sympathetic to your idea that we can all be judged as artists... like punk had attempted to do with music... where the idea of talent as shown by musicality had been dumped in favour of pure energy and emotion... however, that will not happen in our culture because we have been suckd into the notion that the artist is somehow a person of special qualities...

However, with the technological changes that have forever altered the fabric of soceity, we must question our assumptions about what we considers these special qualities to be... I'm simply arguing that those special qualities have moved away from the skills involved in the physical creation of the object to the skills involved in the process of shaping something that is able to represent certain thought, ideas and theories...

Blame Andy Warhol...

Fly...

 

I agree 100%. But within this new paradigm, I still think our Trace is shite

 

It wasn't directed at you, I was commenting on Tracy Emin's work, which I thought was utter shite. I was agreeing with you, though not expressing it quite so eloquently

 

Argh! You said "what a load of shite" right after my post. I thought that was aimed at me!!! Sorry dude, serious case of misunderstanding there. I was wondering why you were being so confrontational! Humble apologies.

 

No worries man, it's cool

 

Or you could 'blame' Marcel Duchamp, who pre-dated Warhol by decades with the same idea of 'ready mades' as art.
When Duchamp first exhibited a men's urinal bowl back in 1917 he was seeking to pose the question 'what legitimates art - what makes an object into art?'
This seems like a relevant question where Emin is concerned. Why is her bed art, but not the very lovely lady's down the street?
It is because of the context - it's in a gallery, so it's art. In it's original setting, her bedroom, Emin's bed (be it's occupant ever so sexy), is not art.
Or - is it because the selection of the object has been made by 'an artist' that it becomes art rather than an everyday object? The Midas like touch of the artist transforming it into art.
If so, what defines an artist?

 

Yup... I thought of Duchamp too... and the whole anti-art route of movements like Dada... and you are spot on with pointing out the fundamental question here is to do with our preconceptions about what is art and what is not...

I know that I have my own defintions of what I consider to qualify something as a piece of art and, by association, what makes somebody an artist... but I think the worrying thing about the contemporary art scene is that it has allowed itself to be taken over my market driven thinking... somebody who comes from Goldsmiths has a certain status... this status is increased if they exhibit at the White Cube gallery... and is further increased if their work is bought by the Saatchi's... and is exhibited at tate Modern etc... it has become as much business orientated as it was back in the days of the old masters painting commissions for the rich and privilaged a few hundred years ago... and this is when art becomes disconnected from "the ordinary man in the street"...

If Emin was an infant terrible like she is publicised, then she would do something to fuck this equation up on a royal scale...

Fly...

 

Fly -


I fully agree with your assesment of the up-market art scene. It is as you say driven by market forces, and in fact, in the case of 'Brit art' it's hardly been bought up by anyone other than Saatchi. It is all, to me anyway, just more capitalist product.

With Tracy though, the 'enfant terrible' is perhaps part of a constructed mystique around a successful artist - image - the artist herself as art/artist as celebrity - if you get my drift. Whether she really has it in her to rock the boat seriously, I don't know. But on past form, I doubt it.

It would be good to see anyone shaking up the art scene! But I can't see that Tracy Emin is going to do it.