The technology nut cases in this world (Long message)

Some things need to be firmly expressed and brought to the attention of everyone. As a man of morals and love, I've decided to do just that.

Having read Rygoody's diatribe using the analogy of woman giving birth to justify human suffering and deaths for technological development, that this conversation merited its own section. It was not only insulting to women but negated humans beings to nothing more than pawns. You can read the entire message here : http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?p=6914330&posted=1#post6914330

Wonderful metaphors and wonderful marketing. And wicked lies!

A women willingly suffers the pangs of childbirth to bring forth a life that is part of herself, an expression of love, (whatever the circumstances of conception, she has chosen to carry the child to term). Furthermore those who benefit in your scenario are completely unknown to those enduring the hardships; so the relationship is anything but of the altruistic nature to which you have compared it. SHAME ON YOU !

We're not talking about a woman giving birth... What we're talking about is human suffering. This is bombs, poisoned lakes, children working in sweatshops, databases being compiled by governments to know what everyone is thinking, etc. You really have to be severely warped to compare this type of human suffering with that of a woman in child birth.

Your short sighted justification for your STAR TREK themed fantasy is both narcissistic and based on erroneous assumptions.
How can you, as a fellow living creature on this planet, justify the costs of this new technology so callously?


I've noticed many scientists throwing around this idea of "immortality" The idea that we can map and manipulate the human DNA in order to stop death from occurring. Have you ever considered how this fantasy will play out?

First of all who gets to be immortal; will it be you, me, all Americans and our allies or the entire world?
Who would be first to get it?
After a man is made immortal, how will he behave?

Let's try the first question,

Would we go to say Africa and offer all the Africans the chance to join us in immortality. Do we say first to them, "I know we enslaved your ancestors, stripped your nations of their natural resources, poisoned waters, sold your children guns and allowed our pharmaceutical companies to experiment on you with toxic drugs. But don't worry, all your sacrifices have gone to pave the road to being immortal.

If we did that, the next step would be a new arms race. An arms race where immortal people search for a way to turn immortals back into mortals so that they could then kill them. The quest for the ultimate club to smash each other's brains would continue.
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How about the second question,

Undoubtedly no one is going to spray the entire populations of the world and make us all immortal at the same time. They will start off with some sort of criteria where the richest will go first (hey, they paid for it), then scientists, politicians and the most beautiful. They can avoid all the problems of the first question by giving it only to certain classes/groups in our society instead of entire peoples.

And if you're not one of them, you're going to end up serving them. (ie: A type of slave or if you're lucky, a pet)
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Now lastly the third question,

Making a man immortal doesn't change the kind of man he was. But now being immortal, he would be removed from all responsibility for his actions. How do you punish a man that will live forever? If he raped a woman, do you sentence him to a thousand years in prison? If he can kill a mortal and he himself can't be killed, what will deter him from killing millions for pleasure?

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Can you imagine the sense of "superiority" that a man made immortal would have towards the rest of the world? He could make the pettiness of ancient Greek gods look tame. In short, making a man immortal is worst than putting a loaded gun in the hand of a monkey. It's putting a nuclear bomb in the hand of a narcissistic and arrogant homosapien.
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I really hate to attack you. But your comparison to childbirth has got to be one of the sickest and most narcisstic things I have ever read in my life. Once again, SHAME ON YOU !

-----
My friend, humanity's best hope lies not in technology
But in craftsmanship, artisinal pursuits and literacy for everyone.
​

 

Alright, if you want to move it all here.

Yes a teleportation system would make all truck drivers and car drivers obsolete.

But I think more realistically speaking, we will see cars that drive themselves first. Google already has a functioning prototype of an automated driving system that drove all the way up and own the west coast without a single intervention from a human driver! Such technology already exists and certainly Google is quick to innovate and push things to practical use. I fully believe in our lifetime we will see every truck driver and cab driver put out of work.

Further than this, one idea that always floats around in my head is a TACO vending machine. Why the hell does taco bell and McDonald's still have full restaurants? The functionality of such restaurants could be entirely replicated inside a fully automated, self-cleaning vending machine. I also too believe that in my life time we will see every fast food worker put out of work and replaced with vending machines.

Already with the advent of new farming technology we have been able to drastically reduce the number of people required in farming. I see things will continue to go this direction as well. It will continually take less and less people to produce more and more food.

I mean this is just the beginning of the list of things we can see in our lifetime. You use STAR TREK and BEAM RAY to make what I say sound somewhat silly. But actually the technologies that can begin to radically displace the world work force via robotics already exist and already have people working on commercial applications. What I describe to be happening is happening right now whether or not anyone likes it. Shit is going to get rough. This is going to be the hardest transition point humanity has ever gone through.

But the solution to avoid hard times ahead is really quite simple, DON'T BE A ROBOT, BE A HUMAN. No matter what you say, you are inherently arguing for humans to continue to act like robots for the rest of their life by arguing against the full integration of technology in all faucets of life. Driving a truck is not a full expression of the greatest role a human can fullfill, serving mass-made tacos is not a full expression of humanness, these are jobs for robots and at some point such work will be done only by robots.


Also do not mistake what I am, I am not one of those people who only see the good technology does. I know very well of the problems it has caused. But my solution to this is not to sit back and COMPLAIN and WHINE. My solution to this is not to pretend this transition is not occuring. My solution is to get in their, educate myself in the mathematics and programming languages used for robotics and attempt to be one of the players in this transition that can guide it to a better place.

It would be my hope that before too many jobs fall out the bottom due to technological advancement, that we will have in place some food production system that could support people for free so such people wouldn't even need jobs to survive. It would be my hope that by the time this starts happening things like cannabis are fully legal so such people can have access to the cheapest and best medicine and wouldn't need to rely on the medical industry as much. But you know this isn't going to come about by complaining about it.


Also about this:

A woman willingly suffers, but does the fetus? Because in that metaphor I describe, the earth is the mother and WE are the fetus. The fetus does not know what it is getting itself into until it is too late and it is forced to go through with it.

Let go, you must trust the process. We are being born into what a human truly is, which is not a flesh robot.


And this whole bit about technology being inherently amoral and inherently intertwined with malpractice is just rubbish. You do not know this, this is some philosophy of being jaded like saying all men are pigs. Or it is like someone saying drugs are inherently intertwined with evil people. ANY THING can be intertwined with evil, just as much as it can be inter twined with anything else. I personally think the internet has done more to blur the boundaries between culture, and inherently move us further to world peace than Ghandi ever did, or the entire 60's counter culture ever did. The internet has moved to change the world to a better place and rock the foundations of the status quo more so than LSD ever did. You may not know the history of the internet and the personal computer in full, but the internet and personal computer as it is implemented today is a vision of the 60's acid heads in palo alto. I personally see the internet and the personal computer to be the symbolization that the gestation ground of the 60's counter culture was actually a success. I see all the flowery rock and roll displays of the 60's counterculture to be the 'smoke' and 'fluff' of the gun, and the internet and the personal computer to be the bullet they shot that is STILL tearing it's way through the status quo to create a new paradigm.

Technological advancement does offer us the ability to blow up and poison more people in one fell swoop than ever before. But it has also given us the greatest tool to produce political and social change. It has given humanity the direction forward to LIBERATE ourselves from having to spend our entire lives behaving like robots in a machine. All we have to do is organize, realize this is where we must go, EDUCATE ourselves on the things that can help this process along, help and support those that are doing it and stop sitting back and complaining about it. The fate of the direction technology goes rests in every bodies hands not just some 'rich evil elite'.


Also this whole thing about single individual immortals. I really do not know. I don't think a single human can be made immortal. When I say immortal I am referring to the entire human species being able to live on indefinanetly because we've transcended dependence on planets.

 

None of us are a fetus, we're all living breathing and feeling humanbeings. And the earth suffers from nothing, it's us and the other living creatures that suffer. Regardless of if humanity is here or not, the earth will still be here.

Tell that to the survivors of the atomic bomb.

Therefore you float from insulting and arrogant to just plain delusional. The world doesn't work like that and if you truly believe the stuff your writing, then you really need to get out and see the world. I've seen severely abused wives in a state of less delusion and denial than you.

So with all due respect and I can't believe I'm about to say this.

You need to move out of your parent's home and stop getting lost in fantasy role playing games. Because as a father and grandfather, I can tell you that you're not going anywhere fast in this life.

I'm not into fantasy role playing games, not even the ones based on Star Trek. Therefore I'm going to politely exit this conversation and send you some love energy. And the love energy is simply because I'm not going to sink to your level of denial or delusion.

You can feel free to quote everything I've said on your Facebook page.



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ps. As for myself, you should know that my older brother was killed in Vietnam and my younger brother was experimented on without consent by the military in project SHAD. He died years later in severe pain literally sweating his own blood and excreting his internal organs. Rest assured that I know very well what I'm talking about.

 

I am delusional if I truly believe what that I am writing?

I am delusional if I believe that there are functioning prototypes of cars that drive themselves?
Check here: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/science/10google.html

I am delusional if I truly believe we will see a point in our lifetime when automated driving systems are approved for use in the real world? The prototype works. It's only a matter of time before legislation goes through to make automated driving systems a viable commercial option for trucking. Trucking and cab businesses are about profit, cars that drive themselves are cheaper. It's only natural that those industries will go this way. This seems actually like a very reasonable, grounded in reality and intelligent assertion to make. The world does and will work this way and atleast I will probably live to see it.

I am delusional for believing vending machines will replace fast food? Alright this one may not be as close as automated driving systems, but really I don't think it's far off. I mean how diffucult would it be to make a taco vending machine? Send a tortilla down a converyer belt, squirt some meat on it, squirt some sauces, drop some veggies, done. This is not a very advanced thing, I am actually amazed such a device doesn't already exist. If such vending machines become common place, what will be the purpose of fast food? I think this is a really reasonable thing to assert.

As for farming technology, what at all is delusional about asserting as time progresses we will be able to produce greater quantities of food with fewer people? This has been a pretty common theme of our past. This also seems like a very reasonable, grounded and intelligent statement to make.

With all that said, I think it is very reasonable to state that we are right now in the process of transitioning into a state where many jobs will be replaced by robotic means. Perhaps I am extrapolating too far into the future when I say we will enter a technological golden age of full automation for me to declare such a belief as 'grounded in reality', but I do not think such a belief is absurd, and to declare such a belief delusional I think is just downright stupid.

You state my post demonstrates delusion, but your post doesn't demonstrate to me that you understood a single thing I actually said. You know you can say "I didn't understand", just because something doesn't makes sense to you doesn't mean its crazy, it is possible that you are not the be-all judge of intelligence and TRUTH.

You seem to me to assume far to many things, and like to think you know way more than you actually do. This whole bit about technology being inherently amoral and that it WILL be misused, you do not know this. This is a FANTASY in your head, further than that it is a paranoid fantasy. Certainly my assertions of a technological golden age cannot be claimed as anything more than a fantasy at this point in time, but atleast my fantasy is founded on the believe of an inherent good in man and their ability to grow into greater states of awareness and harmony, instead of this jaded paranoid belief you have that anything we do is just fucked, so lets not even do it. I'm sorry but that is a victim mentality.

Also to end your entire argument asserting that I live with my parents and do nothing with my life but imagine these things is silly. Do you need to imagine me in such a meager state for you to feel right? I live on my own and am working hard towards everything I state I believe in my posts. I am a student with an aim for studying 3D mathematics and computer graphics programming and robotics programming. I also do part time work as a developer of interactive 3D programs actually applying and making money from real world applications of such knowledge. I don't think I could possibly be in a better position in my life with more opportunity in front of me.

If you perceive me in a fantasy, this is because the future is going to get more fantasy-like. As the world progresses, technology advances and we liberate ourselves more and more from the struggles of base survival needs, our world is going to begin to more and more resemble a fantasy of some sort.

 

cranky old dudes

 

lost me at fakebook page..

 

This is really an easy to understand logic problem.

1) Given enough rope anyone will eventually hang themselves.
2) When things become outdated, they are discarded.
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Now imagine that any child born today will be obsolete relic of the past; A creature that will die out like the Neanderthal.


What we are seeing today is an extinction level event of our own species. All this research is slowly making humans obsolete. First we will create heinous police states to deal with government and big business paranoia and then after that, there will come the day that humans are no longer needed to "invent" a/any machine. And when that happens, it's going to be game over for human race.

Scientists are furiously working towards creating machines that build other machines and improve themselves without human assistance. Many scholars are now predicting that within 20 years, we will see the last inventions ever to be built by a human.

Therefore as each moment we continue to put technology on the pedestal of praise, we are slowly hanging ourselves with a rope of our own making.

 

Many cranky old dudes own firearms. You twit.

 

I duly copied the inspired discussion of voice of truth and rygoody for future reference. "Cranky old dudes" only thought we could reconcile the futurists with environmentalists. No problem. They can start shouting at the next Tea Party meeting.


Instead it was too bad about the Trench Coat Mafia.

 

Does anyone realize that as little as 30 years ago no one paid for water? And that's just 1 generation! The idea that you would have to pay for a clean glass of water when you were thirsty was laughable. No one, absolutely no one would have thought it possible. But water today costs more than gasoline is some areas.

This doesn't take an genius to figure out. It's not rocket science but than again, the same technology responsible for rockets is responsible for the reason we need water treatment plants.

It's the mining for rare earths, the factories and the obsolete-when-you-purchased-it-consumer-electronics that are poisoning our water and air. In the midst of this we have people comparing humanity to a fetus and saying to "trust in the process." Are we to trust in the process that poisons and kills before it will allegedly save us?

I put forth the question,

Are the majority of men that blind to not be able to deduce that these things are neither good for us nor a solution to our problems?
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I ask yet another question,

When the bees are extinct, will the solution be to create small bee-robots that take their place?
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And finally I put forth a logic problem,

When technology does everything humans used to do. Do we not become obsolete as a species and easily discarded much as in the same way we did with the Beta VCR?
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I don't own a firearm and I'm not cranky.
I'm just a bit dishearten by what I see going on in the world today. And I must admit, I find it very frustrating trying to share what I've learned in life with those that refuse to listen. I'm soon to be a great grandfather and I would my great grandchild something more than a photograph.

I would like to leave my great-grandchild a world where when you cut open and eat a watermelon, it's sweet, natural without toxins or a modified genetic code. I want him/her to breath clean air and not have to pay for filters or to have to purchase it in canisters.

In short,
I want my yet to be born great grandchild to have the same thing I once had as a young man... And that is a future.

 

My grandchild emailed me a connection to a clip. It made me think about you and that comment of yours about "trusting the process."

http://www.heavy-r.com/video/108161/Shot_Wound_Baby/

 

I live in Portland, Oregon. And located here is Intel's largest and most advanced manufacturing facilities. So in a way you could say that Oregon is a central hub for the manufacture of the world's most advanced technology. Portland, Oregon also has the cleanest water of any country in the United States.

Is that just a fluke?

Don't get me entirely wrong here, I KNOW that in places around the world, namely what comes to mind is towns in China overtaken by steel mills, they have polluted the water so terribly with there steel manufacturing process that it literally kills the entire community of people in the surrounding area quicker.

But to make this blanket statement that technological manufacturing will poison our water is simply not true. And to assert that high tech companies have no concern with the environment and sustainability is simply not true either.


Your definition of the word 'technology' is grossly oversimplified, and I think very narrow. At one point, a monkey picking up a rock to bang on something, rather than using his hand was deemed 'technological advancement'. Further up the line, humans planting seeds in the ground and watering them, rather than just gathering food, was called 'technological advancement'. Technological advancement is not some 'new thing' which we are at this point in time now deciding if we should have it or let it go, it is something that has been intertwined with the human race since the very beginning. It is our nature to figure out new methods to make our survival easier, and to enrich our quality of life. At this point in time, us picking up a rock to bang on something is no longer technological advancement, but rather us getting a robotic arm to bang on something is technological advancement. The complexity of our advancement increases 100 fold every step we make, but it is still the same nature of being that is leading us to develop robotic arms, that also led us to develop sharp edged stones for cutting. To argue against technological advancement is to argue against the very instincts of human nature.

It is unfortunate that society has developed in such a way as to allow a company to establish a factory, employ poor manufacturing techniques, and poor management of their waste facilities, and ultimately poison entire towns, killing their very own workforce, and still turn a profit for it. This is not an example of visionary technological advancement, this is an example of a criminal who got their hands on a steel mill, rather than a handgun to commit their crime. But it is not like companies get away with this. The chinese government and people, after becoming fully aware of this, have been cracking down on this forcing such companies to close or upgrade their facilities to new technologies which can manage waste properly http://www.facenfacts.com/NewsDetails/3085/china-shuts-down-steel-plant-to-check-pollution.htm

Of course though, whose to say that steel company was even fully aware of what it was doing?

And it is unfortunate that humans have developed things to such a large scale that fuckups can have such a great impact. Back in the day, the monkey who figured out how to build a campfire only burned himself, and maybe a few huts down, when he knocked the campfire over. Whereas today, the monkey who figured out nuclear fission can burn down a 20 mile radius of a city with a fuckup. But this too is just human nature. The scale of our creations will become larger and larger, the scale of our fuckups will become larger and larger.

Yes this is unfortunate, but we don't have any other option but to be humans and live out the process of human nature. I believe in the good, and divinity of human nature, and that it is a process that will painfully, but inevitably lead us to greater and greater states of being, with the hope of ultimately allowing us transcend our struggles altogether. And if you don't believe in the good and divinity of human nature, and the process we have no choice in it pulling us through, then I really have to wonder, why are you even human? Maybe you should have incarnated as a cheetah or dolphin, or on a different planet entirely.

Otherwise, I would love to hear your ideas for dealing with an evergrowing human population, and how to implement the necessary systems and cities to provide life support to that growing population.

 

Voice of Truth, please offer a solution to the current technological crisis, only then could I understand the reasons behind your viewpoint.

This has already happened.

 

Do you realize that you are talking about where to find clean water? Think about it! We should be able to walk to any stream, lake, etc and have a drink without worry. Hell, we can't even drink the rainwater in many areas. And it was technology that caused this mess.

In as little as 40 years ago this conversation might not have ever occurred because clean water was abundant. This is just how bad the situation has already gotten within just my life time. You must stop and ask yourself what the situation will be like when you're my age.

All of these "visionary" and "wonderful" technologies that you like to talk about require money and resources to create. Therefore, governments and big business are a necessary and integral part of their creation. This means that even the best intentions of the most moral scientists determined to try and solve our problems will be used and exploited for profit and killing.

What's more, technology does NOT necessarily improve the standard or quality of living. It just makes life more complicated.

It's a trinity of sorts;
Technology, the Market and Government.
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These 3 things need each other,

In order for the market to expand, it must have a government to enforce regulation, protect various industries and move into new areas for further development and exploitation. Government must enforce or impose its rules on large groups of individuals. IE: In order to impose its rules, a government needs everything from last-forever-food for soliders to missiles for planes to tasers for police officers. It is technology that provides a government with these tools.

Now a government requires a reason to exist and it requires financial resources and the market provides it with those things. It's the market that generates monetary wealth for governments and it's the market that makes technology cheap.

As for technology, it has created the over-population problem in the world via both the industrial and hydrocarbon revolution. And this is allowed to continue by both big business and government because more people in the world means bigger markets and more potential for profit. Technology provides industries newer markets to exploit, more efficient methods of resource extraction, lowers production costs and thereby increasing monetary gain. Through the weapons of force, it also enables government to control or gain control of other markets.

The solution is drop out,
As I stated above, it's a trinity and if you could remove only one of part of it, the entire assemblage will collapse.

We can not stand against a modern government and trying to effect change within the system has limited and fleeting results. We also can not fight against the amorality of the market or the immorality of big business, not directly anyway.

So we must attack the only thing that we stand a chance of defeating.
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And that is technology. By not relying on technology for everything, we weaken both it's control over us and the power of the market to influence us.

In the 60s we said "Tune in, Turn on and Drop out." And the solution is just that simple.

Tune in:

By looking at the problem, examining our priorities and asking ourselves the question, "do we really need this junk?" (eg: Xbox, cell phones, etc... Or 300 virtual friends but no one to hold at night, etc)
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Turn on :

By learning to do things for yourself. Such as being able to cook your own meal, chop your own wood, make or mend your own clothes, etc
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By learning to be sociable. Such as getting to know who neighbor is and helping to build communities through organizing of shared activities that add to the quality and pride of everyone's life. Things like a community rooftop garden, dumpster diving excursions, etc. (I've been busing creating the no electricity needed laundromat.)
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Drop out :

By just refusing to take part in all the stupid crap that's going on. Refuse to be suckered in by the establishment's lies. And all you have to do is make a commitment to self-education, keeping your priorities straight and living by your own hand.
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By spreading the word to get other people to tune in. Talk to others about these problems, teach what you learned, share your skills and set a positive example to others that living simply and with less does not mean a drop in the standard or quality of life.
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Clean food, clean water, proper sewage disposal procedures, adequate housing and friends are what improves the quality of life and creates solutions. The pursuit of these basic things, instead of frivolous non-essential junk, creates craftsmen and cooperative problem solving communities and in so doing increases life expectancy and lowers birth rates.

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Technology is a tool of both domination and resource consumption. It can only temporarily empower a populace, until such time as government creates new technologies to regain its control. And it only temporarily improves environmental conditions until new technologies demand newer and even greater natural resources.

 

Voice_of_Truth, you may not be aware, but Timothy Leary updated that old mission plan to 'Turn on, Tune in and Take over', and he largely saw the implementation of the internet and the personal computer to be the means to accomplish that.

Your use of the blanket term 'technology' is silly. Under the single word 'technology' is a vastly complex range of people, motives, politics, methods, designs, purposes, uses etc. To simply identify the word 'Technology' as the problem with no further description I think is stupid. It's like saying 'Drugs are bad', yes if you keep yourself completely removed and completely uneducated on the vast and complex subject of drugs, you can make the vastly oversimplified blanket statement of 'Drugs are bad', but it doesn't mean such a statement is smart.

I made one important post to you that I don't think you ever read, but really highlights one component of our current situation that I don't think you take into account. I am refferring to my last post on this page: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=430841&f=51&page=5
post #42

There literally is not enough room for all humans to drop out. We have to figure out how to organize ourselves into sustainable mass metropolis's, and eventually push to space travel otherwise the only other solution is reproduce to overpopulation, then kill off a mass of humans, only to reproduce to overpopulation again.

The situation we are in is not 'simple', we are on the forefront of the single most complex manifestation the universe has thus far produced.

 

I use the expression "Tune in, Turn on, Drop out" but having said that, I had met Leary several times and was never overly impressed... He had the ability to contradict himself several times without having to take a second breath.


As far as my "blanket" use of the word technology,
I've made it very clear that artisan and mechanical technologies are desirable technologies. Ergo, things that do not require mass production to be created, such as hand operated tools, water pumps, bicycle operated laundry machines, etc.

But on that note,
I'm really not trying to debate with you as much as that I'm using you to underline today's problems. Like this fantasy world you live in, there are millions of people that are similarly confused or just plain don't know better.

Such is the power of the manipulation by propaganda.

Ghandi has taught us that value in humanity's existence and the self-esteem in the life of the individual can be found in how the hands are used.

Clicking on keyboards, sliding icons around on cheap plastic gadgets and the mass production of even more cheap plastic gadgets; All in the hopes that this will lead to a "Star Trek" type of future is without merit. In fact, from a logical point of view it's downright pathetic.

 

And refusing to work on keyboards, refusing to slide icons around, refusing to use CAD programs to design structures, that is with merit? The person who poured the concrete of a skyscraper has more merit than the person who designed the skyscraper?

Humanities fascination with interactive media screens is not some fluke or the product of propaganda, it is a natural continuation of human nature.

Also, the iPad is made out of glass and aluminum primarily, it has little plastic on it. The majority of materials used on new Apple products can also be recycled to be made into new versions of them.

 

According to National Geographic,
If all humans disappeared today, most of our buildings and skyscrapers would collapse within 150 years. Literally almost 99.9% of everything built by us during the last century would be destroyed by nature.

Whereas the pyramids of Egypt would still be here for thousands of years more to come.

I've read several books on the building of the pyramids. It would appear that in ancient Egypt, in order to design any structure; It was required that the designer had to have apprenticed and worked as a laborer first. The designer had to know how to use all the tools and have felt the weight himself of the materials used.

It was only after having worked several years as you have expressed it, "as someone that poured the concrete" Would he then be allowed to become a designer. I don't think any of our modern skyscraper designers have ever poured concrete or felt the weight of it for themselves.

So yes, the man who poured the concrete has more merit than the person that designed it. Because there would be nothing built without the men that pour the concrete, hammer in the nails, etc.

Again it's a play on what Ghandi has taught us,

"We tend to value lawyers more than the man that cleans the toilet. But we can live well enough without lawyers but a clean toilet is something we all need from time to time."
​

In the same manner,
We can live without skyscrapers but a man that knows how to use a hammer is something we all need from time time.

 

The pyramid is a large pyramidal pile of stone. Of course it will outlive all our houses made of plywood and foam. But this doesn't mean the egyptians were miles ahead of where we are today, we too, today, can actually make a massive pile of stones just as well and have it last just as long. There is nothing 'technologically and engineeringly advanced' about the pyramids compared to today. It's impressive they did that all those years ago, but we can in fact create more advanced structures today that could last just as long if we wanted to. But in cities the objective isn't to build a brick building or wood house that will last forever, the objective is to build one that will produce enough profit to make the endeavor worthwhile. Until it is ultimately bulldozed and something new is built for more profit.

To say the person who pours the concrete has more merit than the person who designed the skyscraper is silly as well. Certainly there is considerable value for people who are highly skilled at pouring concrete and can do it exactly to spec. But there isn't any skyscrapers getting built without an engineer and architect and CAD program behind it either.

And if you go to engineering or architecture school you do spend a considerable amount of time learning about materials and how to work directly with them, if you didn't how would someone know what could be done with any given material?

And to equate designers, architects and engineers to lawyers just because they both live in a higher rung of society is silly as well. They are two radically different things with radically different positions in culture. The subject of not needing lawyers is somewhat more reasonable. I do believe what we really need is just a better political and societal structure, rather than more lawyers trying to argue in this shitty one. But to say we don't need designers, architects and engineers!? What? We would get no where. They are the ones that advance the human race intellectually and technologically. Any innovator or inventor could be deemed an 'engineer', 'architect' or 'designer'.

And we can't live without skyscrapers. I've told you this multiple times now. But there isn't enough room on the surface of the planet for us all to not live in multilevel structures. We have to grow vertically as much as we grow horizontally.

 

Mr. RyGoody,
Whatever you wish, but I start volunteering at a soup kitchen for the homeless next week monday. Although I'm sure that when the robot feeding grew is done getting their oil changed they can take over. But until then I'll do my best to fix the problems of our world with love, compassion, logic and old fashion common sense.

The messages in this section are long winded with very few people now bothering to take the time to read my discourse. Sadly any further lengthy commentary will only serve to deter more people. So unless you can get Scotty or Doctor McCoy to beam down and help out, I've said all there is to say on this subject.


[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha8ocu1UaWI

I hope that one day you figure out just what it is you're supporting with this Star Trek fantasy you have.