The Qur'an lies about the Trinity!

The Qur'an states in Surah 5:116 that Christians worship 3 Gods: the Father, the Mother(Mary), And the Son (Jesus).

and in Surah 5:73-75:
" They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three". (they're obviously talking about Christians)

This is certainly not true!

WE DO NOT worship Mary. You've got it all backwards.

The Trinity includes : The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
However, Muhammed may have met with Choloridians, a (false) sect of Christianity, who had this false teaching.

And we don't worship 3 gods. We worship one Substance: God.

There's only one God. And he has 3 persons.
like an egg has 3 parts, but still is one. Or a human has a spirit, soul, and flesh, but still is one.

Could it be that the Qur'an's been altered like you say the Bible has?

 

claudia, you also must remember when Mohammad had lived...600 CE...this is way before Prodestants cut away from the Catholic Church, and even before the time of the Crusades...

 

Your post is just about right RYU.

The fact that Islam began before protestantism doesn't alter the truth of it. All of that was accepted Catholic doctrine centuries earlier.

 

yeah, i know...i dont get what you mean..

what i emant is that to Mohammad [if he had any contact with Catholics] may have seen them worship like this, and thats why it says such...

my point was that because protestanism doesnt place as high of an emphasis on mary as catholisism does [and i know ryu is prodestant] and that it may seem weird/wrong to say such a thing...


was that last bit directed at me BBB?

 

I hate the title of this topic. You can't say the Quran lies. It should be more appropriate if you say 'The Quran has a different view on the Trinity'.

Anyway, my Quran says this:

116 And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah ? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I used to say it, then Thou knewest it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy Mind. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower of Things Hidden ?

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 5 - The Food)

73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

(The Qur'an (Pickthall tr), Sura 5 - The Food)

I don't think the Quran exactly states here that Mary is part of the Trinity. This part is not about the Trinity, but about the oneness of God. Muslims believe that Jesus is not part of the Trinity, they don't believe in the Trinity (at least not in the way Christians do). They believe Jesus to be a Prophet, an important Prophet, but not something like the Son of God. The point here is that Christians worship the Prophet and His mother, as well as God, and this is contrary to the Muslim point of view.

Again: there's no such thing as right or wrong here.

 

Yes it was - I thought you might be suggesting that there may have been some Catholic doctrine at an earlier time where Mary was held to be a person of the Trinity. I see I was mistaken. It is well known that Muhhamud met with some Christians mainly in Syria, as I understand. They could have been Nestorians, and I'm not exactly sure without looking it up what their precise beliefs were. They were considered heretics by the church.
But you could be right that he'd seen Catholics praying to Mary, and thus reached a wrong conclusion that She was being worshiped.

I agree kiss_the_sky - it isn't very well framed, and I hope Muslims won't be offended.

 

How can the Quran lie about something which the christians dont even have a consensus? Do you really think your view is the only view about the trinity or is there a vast hubble of views about this issue?

read the official rosary of the Catholic Church!
"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"

There were christians(and still might be some) that hold Mary as one in the trinity and there is without doubt millions and millions of christians who worship Mary atelast once a week!

Ofcourse... and the hindus worship one god, ask any hindu! Its "only" different manifistations... I dont call that monotheism, you want monotheism? Read my signature, thats monotheism.

There is strong evidence for the authenticity of the Quran and a great number of non muslim scholars who support this. Why? Because it was written down while the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was still breathing!!! and it was memorized and transmitted to the next generation.

They memorized every chapter, verse, word, letter in the original language and today there are atleast 9 000 000 people (can you give me one person who has memorized only one chapter of the bible in its original language?????) on this planet who know it all by heart! (I hope to be among them my self... I only have 6 chapters left of 114)

 

The prayer you've quoted is not worshiping Mary. It is a prayer for Her intercession, for Her prayers. It is believed by Catholics that such intercession is possible, not only by Mary, but by the other Saints too.

She is called 'Queen of Heaven' not because She is to be thought of as a goddess of some kind, but because She is head of the saints in Heaven.

If there are Christians who worship Mary, they are a small minority. The Eastern Orthodox churches hold the same view as the Catholics, whilst Protestantism, Baptism etc, don't pray to the Virgin or to saints.

I don't know of any major church that holds Mary as a person of the Trinity. But there may be some small sects who do.

 

There is no evidance in the Bible that Mary's part of the trinity...

Burbot. You're partially right.

That's why I added:

The Mary worship in the Catholic Church was to get Pagans in.
That's why Protestants don't follow it, as well as no evidence in God's Word.

 

Bill, if you dont think thats worshipping then obviously we dont define worship the same. Asking someone to pray for you does not have to mean worshipping this person unless s/he is dead! Whats the difference of praying to a dead for salvation or praying to a dead who will then pass it on to God for salvation?(Since the dead can't hear your prayers nor answer them, if they could then youve made them divine)

Mary worship is an established fact in the catholic church(The [old] Pope even declared that salvation depends on her aswell) and catholics are the largest christian group.

"And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say).[5.116]

Ryu, would you mind presenting some verses(or just one verse) where Jesus(peace be upon him) commands or allows his companions to worship him besides God or will you find him commanding them to worship his Lord?

 

I don't see much point in continuing dispute on this point. I have stated what the Church doctrine is regarding the Blessed Virgin - if you are not comfortable with it, that is your prerogative.

You ask what is the difference between asking someone living to pray for you and praying to saints. The difference is that the saints are with God, they have completed successfully this round of life in the world.

 

I've given you enough by now.

 

You havent acually, the verses you showed me said nothing about worship.

 

Lying is something completely different from not telling the truth. To lie is to knowingly and deliberately falsificating evidence. Simply making a mistake or forgetting something, which is never deliberate and not often knowingly, is also part of the whole that 'not telling the truth' is.

Besides, who says that you, or the bible or the preacher or even the disciples have got it so perfectly right? They can also forget, make mistakes, even scrap or add parts of the story and lie about things. The other way around, when I say everything the bible says about god is false, I may just have it wrong, but that's what I believe so at least I'm not deliberately saying it's wrong while I know or believe it is right.

All I want to say is, truth isn't as simple as it looks, and has no solid antithesis. The Koran most probably was not lying.

 

I've been thinking about this, and on reflection, I wish I'd not responded to this thread. Not because I retract any of what I've said, which I think is about right, but because although RYU may not have intended it, it could be an offensive title for Muslims.


The very worst way to seek to promote one's own ideas is to insult, albiet un-wittingly the deeply held beliefs of others.

 

Unless you have superior tactical / spiritual strength. Then insult away, they can't do anything about it.

 

Didn't you say you haven't read all of it, because I've posted to much ( I agree, that WAS quite alot in one load ^^; ) ?

Here was the one I had put emphesis on the most:


22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. NKJV


Peace.

 

which book is that ryu?

 

John 5:18-23

NKJV