The Origins of the Christian Heaven and Hell

I'm putting this in a general area of the P&R forum because I think it should pertain to many ideas not just Christian ones.

In the thread Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth I stated

Here I'd like to continue this discussion. I think the quote states my intent quite well enough so I'll simply add some backing info to legit my sources and let you all take it from there. I would also like to state that I am in no way trying to discredit Christian beliefs or doctrine here. I am simply showing some interesting facts.

This site states what I am trying to show quite well so we'll start with it
Honest Questions and Answers about Hell

For those Christians who would like to make a case against what I am saying I'll go ahead and give you this web site to start with http://www.biblestudying.net
But I also urge you to look the the Old Testament for yourselves to find any indication of Hell as you and your brothers and sisters percieve it. If at all possible compare modern interpretations of the Bible with the original hebrew Tanakh. The Tanakh is the origin of your modern Old Testament and could be very helpful in understanding the nature of the bible's Sheol and what it pertains to.

Now on to Satan. When is Satan mentioned in the Old Testament?

Isaiah 14:12-22 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD."

But who was Lucifer? Was he the infamous Satan? The bible does not say, it only refers to him as Lucifer. Also please note that in the original hebrew hell would have called Sheol and you can refer back to my previous links to understand the meaning of that.

Ezekiel 28:12-19 "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

Refer back to this website for a detailed analysis of this text.
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/heylucy.html

Also I'll let you read Job for yourself and make your own conclusions from it because this is the only time that Satan is mentioned directly. It might not be what you think though.

Thank you all for your time and I hope this turns into an interesting and lively debate.

 

"But who was Lucifer? Was he the infamous Satan? The bible does not say, it only refers to him as Lucifer. Also please note that in the original hebrew hell would have called Sheol and you can refer back to my previous links to understand the meaning of that."

I do believe the Bible does say. In the verse you quoted, "Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."


The above quotation seems to make mention that this beautiful angel that was created perfect remained perfect until imperfect was found in him.

It also makes mention that this angel was present in the garden, with only using the OT and deducing who was present in the account of the garden in genesis, we can see that the pieces fit together rather nicely even if the NT isn't taken into consideration.

The rest of the quotation remarks exactly why he changed and paints a picture as to who this person is:

"By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

Please note where it says that this former angel will be devoured by a fire. Being devoured seems obvious to mean to be destroyed, to be dissipated and far removed from existence. This plays into the question you ask.

Like you, I don't believe in the common understanding of heaven and hell, but when discussing hell itself, hell was a mistranslation of the word Sheol as you may already know. Job uses this term as the common understanding of death. He compares sheol or death to a cloud that vanishes. Job 7:19 "Just as a cloud dissipates and vanishes, those who die will not come back." This seems to follow with God's comment to the angel in Isaiah that he will be devoured by fire. This seems to be the most likely understanding of the idea of Sheol or hell.

With some deductive reasoning as well as cross referencing, the terms seem to be defined clearly as to who Lucifer is and what hell represents even if the NT isn't applied to the argumentation. With the NT applied, it may clear up the definitions further and I believe it does.

In my opinion, the origins of the Christian concept of hell (not the common understanding mind you) comes from the books of the Bible before the gospels. It seems to have a continuation of concepts.

Sorry for no going over heaven as of yet.

 

You might find this article interesting.

HELL

A word used in the King James Version (as well as in the Catholic Douay Version and most older translations) to translate the Hebrew she’ohl′ and the Greek hai′des. In the King James Version the word “hell” is rendered from she’ohl′ 31 times and from hai′des 10 times. This version is not consistent, however, since she’ohl′ is also translated 31 times “grave” and 3 times “pit.” In the Douay Version she’ohl′ is rendered “hell” 64 times, “pit” once, and “death” once.

In 1885, with the publication of the complete English Revised Version, the original word she’ohl′ was in many places transliterated into the English text of the Hebrew Scriptures, though, in most occurrences, “grave” and “pit” were used, and “hell” is found some 14 times. This was a point on which the American committee disagreed with the British revisers, and so, when producing the American Standard Version (1901) they transliterated she’ohl′ in all 65 of its appearances. Both versions transliterated hai′des in the Christian Greek Scriptures in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Ge′en·na (English, “Gehenna”) is rendered “hell” throughout, as is true of many other modern translations.

Concerning this use of “hell” to translate these original words from the Hebrew and Greek, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2, p. 187) says: “HADES . . . It corresponds to ‘Sheol’ in the O.T. [Old Testament]. In the A.V. of the O.T. [Old Testament] and N.T. [New Testament], it has been unhappily rendered ‘Hell.’”

Collier’s Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28) says concerning “Hell”: “First it stands for the Hebrew Sheol of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament. Since Sheol in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word ‘hell,’ as understood today, is not a happy translation.”

It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

The meaning given today to the word “hell” is that portrayed in Dante’s Divine Comedy and Milton’s Paradise Lost, which meaning is completely foreign to the original definition of the word. The idea of a “hell” of fiery torment, however, dates back long before Dante or Milton. The Grolier Universal Encyclopedia (1971, Vol. 9, p. 205) under “Hell” says: “Hindus and Buddhists regard hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration. Islamic tradition considers it as a place of everlasting punishment.” The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 1898, p. 581; The Book of the Dead, with introduction by E. Wallis Budge, 1960, pp. 135, 144, 149, 151, 153, 161, 200.

“Hellfire” has been a basic teaching in Christendom for many centuries. It is understandable why The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81) said: “Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.” Nevertheless, such transliteration and consistent rendering does enable the Bible student to make an accurate comparison of the texts in which these original words appear and, with open mind, thereby to arrive at a correct understanding of their true significance.

 

Here is another article that might be interesting on this subject as it answers many often asked questions.

Hell

Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge′en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?
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Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?
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Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?
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Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl′ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai′des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge′en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai′des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai′des it uses that same translation for ge′en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai′des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge′en·na as “hell,” as it does hai′des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko′la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou′] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba′sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?

Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge′en·nan tou py·ros′ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?

Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

 

As for Lucifer, again you might find this article interesting.

Is Lucifer a name that the Bible uses for Satan?

The name Lucifer occurs once in the Scriptures and only in some versions of the Bible. For example, the King James Version renders Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”

The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” means “shining one.” The Septuagint uses the Greek word that means “bringer of dawn.” Hence, some translations render the original Hebrew “morning star” or “Daystar.” But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate uses “Lucifer” (light bearer), and this accounts for the appearance of that term in various versions of the Bible.

Who is this Lucifer? The expression “shining one,” or “Lucifer,” is found in what Isaiah prophetically commanded the Israelites to pronounce as a “proverbial saying against the king of Babylon.” Thus, it is part of a saying primarily directed at the Babylonian dynasty. That the description “shining one” is given to a man and not to a spirit creature is further seen by the statement: “Down to Sheol you will be brought.” Sheol is the common grave of mankind—not a place occupied by Satan the Devil. Moreover, those seeing Lucifer brought into this condition ask: “Is this the man that was agitating the earth?” Clearly, “Lucifer” refers to a human, not to a spirit creature.—Isaiah 14:4, 15, 16.

Why is such an eminent description given to the Babylonian dynasty? We must realize that the king of Babylon was to be called the shining one only after his fall and in a taunting way. (Isaiah 14:3) Selfish pride prompted Babylon’s kings to elevate themselves above those around them. So great was the arrogance of the dynasty that it is portrayed as bragging: “To the heavens I shall go up. Above the stars of God I shall lift up my throne, and I shall sit down upon the mountain of meeting, in the remotest parts of the north. . . . I shall make myself resemble the Most High.”—Isaiah 14:13, 14.

“The stars of God” are the kings of the royal line of David. (Numbers 24:17) From David onward, these “stars” ruled from Mount Zion. After Solomon built the temple in Jerusalem, the name Zion came to apply to the whole city. Under the Law covenant, all male Israelites were obliged to travel to Zion three times a year. Thus, it became “the mountain of meeting.” By determining to subjugate the Judean kings and then remove them from that mountain, Nebuchadnezzar is declaring his intention to put himself above those “stars.” Instead of giving Jehovah credit for the victory over them, he arrogantly puts himself in Jehovah’s place. So it is after being cut down to the earth that the Babylonian dynasty is mockingly referred to as the “shining one.”

The pride of the Babylonian rulers indeed reflected the attitude of “the god of this system of things”—Satan the Devil. (2 Corinthians 4:4) He too lusts for power and longs to place himself above Jehovah God. But Lucifer is not a name Scripturally given to Satan.

 

When is Satan mentioned in the Old Testament?

In the KJV the word Satan is used at:
1 Chronicles 21:1; Job 1:6; Job 1:7; Job 1:8; Job 1:9; Job 1:12; Job 2:1; Job 2:2; Job 2:3; Job 2:4; Job 2:6; Job 2:7; Psalm 109:6; Zechariah 3:1; Zechariah 3:2 but without useing the word Satan he is talked about in other places in the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

No, I did not.

What to be confused about? The word "hell" has been used in several translations and so yes the word "hell" is in those translations and that fact can not be denied. So hell is in the Bible. The problem comes from the fact that the word "hell" has pagan connotations of what is called "hellfire" and so many when many see the word "hell" think of those connotations rather than what the Bible actually says on the subject, which is that "hell" is the grave no more no less.

Sheol is a word transliterated from the actual Hebrew word, which means it is the actual Hebrew word that has been anglicized. So the word "hell" does not come from the word Sheol, it is just a poor attempt to translate the word Sheol. And yes the Word Sheol does mean grave or pit.

That is correct.

No, what I'm saying is the word "hell" is in the Bible, there is no denying that but the problem is the the word is a very poor word to use to translate the word Sheol because of it's non-Biblical connotations.

You really need to know is what the Bible says about the condition of the dead.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.
(Ecclesiastes 9:10) All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going.
(Psalm 146:4) His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.
This what the Bible says about the Dead, so the question is what good what it do if "hell" was a place of fire and torture? The dead wouldn't know it. So no, "hell" is just the common grave of mankind and no more.

There is pagan influence found in the Bible. There are many so called "Christians" that mix pagan things with true worship and feel that by adopting pagan concepts and calling them "Christian" it makes them holy but the Bible points out that true worship should not be contaminated with what is not holy.

There is no scriptural evidence for Lucifer being Satan or the Devil. So no, the Bible indicates Lucifer is not Satan or the Devil.

It means what it says but if you me to comment on it fine, just ask.

As I have said many times before the KJV is a very poor translation but it is probably the the most widely used English translation and in fact there are those who believe that it is the "received" word of God. I use it sometimes in these discussions for those reasons and also because it is easy to find a lot study aids that use it, such as Strong's concordance.

 

I don't think that verse is addressing the cherub as a 'son of man' but the person doing the writing. It does seem to be addressing the cherub as being in the garden, however. In my personal studies, a 'son of man' could mean anyone who is descended from Adam and Eve. The aforementioned verses don't seem to be relating the cherub as one.

So even if the verse speaks of king of Tyrus who is clearly human, it still seems to be addressing Lucifer or 'the shining one' as being a cherub and not as a son of man. It could indicate a sharing of goals rather than saying that the spirit creature of Satan does not exist.

What do you mean?

 

In response to some of your other posts I'd like to simply say that my meaning of this thread was to show the reality that the christian concept of hell is not the same as the original concept of hell as you so choose to call it.

Now on to this part. I'm going to center on Job because I no longer own a bible and I gave my copy of the Tanakh to a friend who owns a library so I can't correctly address all of these verses but I will go into some of this

Job 1:8-12 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

In the common Christian teachings Satan is completly estranged from God thus having no contact with him whatsoever since his "banishment. But here we see the Satan of Job directly conversing with God. And not just with God but there in Heaven with him. Why is this? I'll answer that question with my logical answer momentarily friends. First let me state that God lets this Satan time and again bring trials and tribulations on Job. He allows this because he is testing Job's faith to see if this man can truly be so fervent in it even in the face of tragedy. God gives this Satan leave to do these things to Job, Satan himself has no part in this other than to do God's will against Job. This would imply not that Satan is the tempter but that God is. Satan being simply a being that does the work of the Lord for him. This is not the work of some maniacal demon out to harm Job for being a man of God, this is an entity that is humble and serves God in the way that God intended him to. Obviously what I am getting at is that this Satan is far from the same one depicted in the New Testament. And what I'll finish with is that this Satan obviously works for God in the fact that he is portrayed as being in Heaven with God and doing his bidding. Thats all I'll say for now and perhaps soon I can find those other verses and see for myself what they say.

 

'Presence from the lord' may not mean what you may think it sounds like. Not too far later It seems to be saying that Satan 'roams the earth': Job 2:2 "And the LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

Instead of residing in heaven, Satan perhaps resides on the earth and is trapped there. Perhaps that is the point of Genesis 3:14 where it says that the serpent will crawl on it's belly and will eat dust all days of his life; to denote that Satan will reside on earth till death.

 

I'm unsure what you are saying.

Many who call themselves "Christian" believe in unscriptural "hellfire". The truth is that the Bible says that hell means merely grave or pit. So when the Bible says something like, he went to hell, it means that he went to the common grave of mankind and not the pagan concept of "hellfire".

First, Satan had access to heaven until Jesus cast him out of heaven as described in Revelation 12:10-12. So no, Satan was not in heaven as a servant of God.

If you reread the scripture you posted, you will see that God was pointing out to Satan that Job was a faithful servant of God. Then Satan said that Job only only served God for what he could get out of it, that Job would curse God to his face if hard times befell him. So God said do what you will, Job will not turn aside from true worship. So then Satan went out to prove that Job did not serve God out of love but out of selfishness.

 

if flies could talk..

Dry turd "awe hell"
Moist turd "awe heaven"

Being a human being dont mean shit..... imo..

 

Revelation 12: 10-12 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

How is it that you are putting a timing of the "casting out of this accuser of our bretheren"? Revelation does not state when this happened or would happen. While it is common Christian belief that Revelation pertains mostly to future events are you trying to say that this happened previously as you say Isaiah and the story of Lucifer indicates? Or are you saying it has yet to happen? Either way there is no recorded conversations between satan and God in the New Testament

 

Yep that is pretty much what I meant.

As for the sources, many "pagan" religions have a tradition of "hellfire", Buddhism for one. View attachment 47592

I'm sorry if you got that impression from what I said. I do not believe that the Bible itself has pagan influences but that some who call themselves "Christians" have allowed themselves to be influenced by the paganism that surrounds them and have tried to apply them to what the Bible says.

I believe the entire Bible is inspired of God but many "Christians" who are influenced by paganism have tried to make the Bible say what it does not.

I believe that by comparing different translations of the Bible a person can get a better understanding of what the Bible actually says and that can overcome some of the translation errors. Also looking into the original language words when there is doubts is also helpful.

I personally believe the Bible has but one true interpretation but many will disagree with me and say that what the Bible says is just a matter of personal perception and so the Bible has many interpretations.

I've been meaning to start a thread about how God could write the Bible and the Bible have only one interpretation but being somewhat lazy, that's still on the back burner.

 

Concordance are not free..

I think concord went out of business too. Don't threads like this Tire you?

 

As for the timing the Scripture says; Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ, which gives a time for this to happen, generally called the "Second Coming", many believe this is yet to come but I believe that the increasing violence and unsolvable problems the Earth is experiencing is the "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time" and thus is proof that Jesus has already come into his kingdom and has cast Satan to the earth.

Also this, the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night, seems to tell us what Satan was doing in the Job verses we were discussing.

 

Yes but it is a good tired, kind of like exercising can make you good tired.