So what's so bad about being effeminate?

I've been noticing a disturbing number of threads - questioning the reasons why any gay man would choose to be effeminate - and how "real women" don't act/behave as outrageously as certain effeminate males do. And isn't it just a way to get attention?

Speaking for myself, I was ridiculed and bullied in high school: simply for being the person I am. I was forever being accused of acting like a faggot, when I was just trying to pass my classes - and make it through each day. I certainly did not want to draw attention to myself (quite the opposite). But my voice was rather high, and I was just naturally expressive. So if that was such a horrible thing - why make fun of people like me, yet respect a female for basically behaving the same way? I mean, it's not like I wore a mini skirt and lipstick - each time I dared to show up for class. My hair was long (but most dudes had long hair in the 1970s), so it's not like I was trying to fool anybody.

In fact, it all became so confusing - that I opted to drop out of high school at the end of my first year. Now that I am three decades older: I can see the value and bravery in those folks that chose to stick it out - despite being treated like a joke on a daily basis. But my point is that most effeminate men - are not trying to disrespect women or draw attention to themselves. It's just the way they are. And because most folks are so rigid about how people should behave (MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS), high school can be an especially brutal time for effeminate men and masculine women.

There's a really cool flick called: PARIS IS BURNING. I wish more folks would take a peek at it. It is all about celebrating our feminine and masculine sides. Instead of feeling ashamed of them. And how one can turn a so-called negative - into a positive. Big Time. I just wish this film had been around when I was still in high school: It would have made me realize that being effeminate can be a beautiful thing. And I'd have walked through the halls of my high school - with my head held high. Instead of dropping out.

--QP

 

My name is Jamie
I am pale and fair

All the men whistle at me
Whenever I am there

I just keep on walking
Looking up at the sky

Not caring for their attention -
They'd just say my long hair is a lie

But I like my hair long
And sad movies make me cry

Does this make me a freak -
Does this mean I should die?

--Unknown

 

It is disturbing. I cant see why so many people have such a huge problem with effeminate gay men. I've seen a couple of threads on these forums from ''straight acting'' gay men, or people speaking on their behalf, attacking effeminate gays. I think with gay men who are not effeminate, they see effeminate gay guys as reflecting badly on them, which is quite stupid. I also think most people think effeminate gay men are putting on an act, and not being their natural selves. But I think most of them are being their natural selves by being effeminate. I guess some people just have major problems believing that any man could be naturally effeminate.

I dont see it as an affront to my femininity that some gays behave that way. At the end of the day, they are still men. No matter how effeminate they may act. I myself am quite girly, but also enjoy some things that are seen as stereotypically male. (like watching football) But that doesnt make me a male, does it? It just means I like those things. I do find the whole "Talk to the hand girlfriend!" type nonsense quite silly, but I find it silly when women act like that as well. Not just gay men. I find any over the top character traits to be a bit silly, regardless of the gender who is doing it.

As long as people are not harming anyone by being the way they are, then nobody should have a problem with it. I think both men and women who have a problem with it, its because of insecurities. Women because they feel it is infringing on their gender, and men because they believe ''men should be men'' and not show any feminine character traits at all. Men and women are different. But what people need to realise, is that a lot of the culturally held stereotypes of masculinity and femininity are just that. Stereotypes.

 

Right on. I never pretended to be female in high school - but several straight dudes came on to me, and gave me much grief - when I told them I was male. But they always initiated some sort of romantic interest. I never pretended to be a girl. Even though I always felt I was meant to be a girl. (I hated sports! LOL. And I liked dolls and double dutch jump rope). Plus I was immensely attracted to media folks like John Boy Walton and David Cassidy. Plus I always felt humiliated to have to use the Boy's room. I did my best to wait until the school day was done. Imagine if you are a female, and having to use the Men's room? That's how it always felt to me. I know only a few folks can understand how humiliating that always was to me. Gosh, I hope things are better now.

--QP

 

I noticed this too and have been annoyed by the posts.

People are all different, why on earth should it matter if a woman behaves like a 'woman' and a man a 'man' - who has ever defined these terms?!

I'm gay, but do not behave like a 'butch lesbian', or a 'lipstick lesbian' - so should that mean I am straight!

Why do people feel the need to label others? People do not need to fir perfectly in boxes, we are not shaped for that!

 

i hope you noticed I didnt post in those threads
straight here.....but

i defend your right to be who you are and always will

 

Well, I never pretended to be anything in high school. I was brought up as male, but never tried to fit into that role, and saw myself as female from a very early age. I hated sports when I was younger as well, especially having to participate in them. Although I did like watching boxing on tv. Although I was brought up as male, I saw myself as a tomboy growing up, due to the fact that I liked some stereotypically male things. I never once saw the fact that I liked watching boxing, etc as a sign of being ''male''. I just saw myself as female, and that's it.

As for having to use the boys room...yeah, that was very humiliating, I hated it. I felt dehumanised, and degraded, like I shouldnt be there. It was the same with physical education at school. I hated getting changed and showered with ''other boys'' , because it felt totally wrong and unnatural to me as I saw myself as a girl. So I regularly didnt bring my kit into school so I wouldnt have to endure that. And on the rare occassions I did do it, I always got showered on my own, once everyone else had finished and came out. Same with the toilet. Id rather hold it in and wait till I got home, rather than use the boy's toilets. The whole process of growing up for me was very humiliating and degrading because it all felt wrong.

Once I became sexually aware, and developed crushes on guys, I just felt that was something totally normal for me as a girl to be doing. I saw myself as completely heterosexual. I didnt see myself as ''gay'' because I didnt see myself as male, and never did. But of course, unlike other girls, I couldnt persue any romantic interests, so retreated into my shell and became a loner and hermit. Because I always introduced myself as female to people I met, and did look like a girl, I did have one or two guys try and hit on me. But I knew nothing could come from that, and I didnt want the humiliation of them potentially finding out about my genitalia, so I just pushed them away. I did find that process very hard to deal with, especially on the one occasion I did develop deep feelings for a guy. It felt horrible and soul destroying not to be able to act on those natural feelings because of my body.

Anyway, gender is totally different from stereotypes of gender. Labels and stereotypes suck!

 

What about the other end of the spectrum, those sitting right in the middle of average, plain, boring, dull, going through life, no one really paying attention to them.

Some mentioned high school, imagine going through high school with nothing to really distinguish you, no one really paying attention to you.

You all may be different, but at least that makes you interesting, a realisation that should make things better for you as you get older as everyone else tends to get bored of normal as they get older

 

Excellent point! What's up with these rigid stereotypes? I say it's time to move forward.



--QP

 

Right on.

--QP

 

Believe me, Id take being average, plain, boring and dull over the way I am any day! You talk about no-one paying attention to you, I'd love that. Yep, I've had attention paid to me, but its not desirable attention, and Id much rather not have it.

I am different, but I don't want to be, and would much rather be just a normal average woman, leading a normal, average life. Because of my condition, I have felt incredibly restricted in life. I cant live a normal life the way most others can. Not to mention I hate my body with a passion. Would anyone bored of ''normality'' want to trade places with me? I think not.

 

I tend to agree w/Invisible Soul. Sure, I got some attention (as long as folks thought I was a girl). But after I made it clear that I was (in fact) a male -- high school became a living hell for me. And I was pretty quick about it: told the first dude hitting on me that I was not a girl. It all went to hell in a handbasket - from there.

As far as being anonymous? Is being infamous better? Especially when you never wanted or asked for it? I mean, if I could have been an anonymous student - I would have earned my diploma. I never had a problem with grades: It was the social trauma that ultimately forced me to drop out. And that includes several physical beatings. I was no match for the masses. I was alone. Period.

--QP

 

Really? That's so sad.

I have never experienced any negative attitudes, but then I guess it's different with females.

But, you should be proud of who you are. You to Queer Poet.

 

But you are never really going to know are you, what it is to live someone elses life, especially those at the other end of the spectrum. You are never going to be able to live both and compare which is really better.

Those guys that gave you a beating in high school, how do you know they arent worse off than you now?

 

My life was made a living hell from the moment I started school. As the fact that I was different from ''other boys'' was apparent even as a young child. I was bullied right throught primary school, and high school. I never even attempted to fit into the ''male'' role chosen for me, and I was victimised badly for that. The fact I was the only non-catholic in a catholic school didnt help much either. Anonymous is much better than infamous, and I cant see whats so wrong with ''anonymous''. After the life Ive had, the idea of that is bliss to me. That is part of the reason Ive always been alone, and lived as a hermit. The sort of attention I would get, is attention I dont want. So Id rather just stay away from society period.

If I was a ''normal'' girl, I could have persued my dreams, instead of choosing to not do anything, rather than have to live a lie to do something meaningful. I initially was seen as a bright, intelligent student. But ended up failing all my exams due to the trauma of being bullied, skipping school a lot due to that, and the severe depression caused by knowing I was female, but I wasnt developing the way other girls were, I was developing physically as a man. Believe me, there is nothing great about being ''different''. I wouldnt wish the life Ive had on anyone. Boring? Bring it on!

It's not sad. I cant grasp why anyone would think that I should like what I am, or even revel in that fact. I would think the fact I've always wanted a normal body, and just to be able to live a normal life in peace would be very understandable to most people. Yet most seem to have a hard time grasping why I hate myself and my life so much. Id have thought it was obvious.

Its not really any different for ''females''. Anyway, I am female. I hardly think growing up if you're male but you're brought up as female would be much fun either.

I can't be proud of something I never chose. You're proud of achievements, things you worked for. I was born like this, so it's hardly an achievement of any sort. How can I be proud of an aspect of myself that I hate, had no say in, or any control over, and has made my life a total hell?

 

I meant it may be different growing up as a lesbian - I have male gay friends who had a much harder time.

I didn't choose to be gay, but I am damn proud of it now and what I have done with it.

 

Well, Im not gay, or male, so I wouldnt know what its like to grow up as that. I do know that gay men usually suffer a lot harder time than lesbians. I cant see how that applies to me though.

You may not have chosen to be gay, but at least if you are gay and out, you can work at having a constructive life. And a happy life in your sexuality. Especially if you're a lesbian rather than a gay man. It's far harder to live a normal life simply as your gender if you were brought up as the wrong gender, and developed secondary physical characteristics of the opposite sex. I cant ever live my life as a normal woman, and that is the only way I could possibly be happy.

I guess the only thing I can say I am proud of, is just that Im alive. And that Ive managed to survive. I know a lot of people in mine, and similar situations commit suicide. The fact that Im still breathing probably is an acheivement. But I cant be proud of the way I was born. I had no say in that, or the (wrong) decision to raise me as a male. You can only be proud of things that are within your own control. If I had the choice, I would definitely rather be a normal woman, with a normal body. So if anything that is me showing disdain for my condition, rather than having pride in it.

 

If it is any consolation, I admire your strength to stay alive. It sure the hell ain't easy - and I can totally relate to your experience. So you are not alone. Hell, I think we need to start a survivor group (or something). Nobody should have to feel so invisible.

--QP

 

I dunno if Im alive because of strength, or if it's because Im too scared to kill myself. Id say its probably the latter. lol

I do feel invisible, and when I was younger, I felt even more invisible. I call myself invisible, because when Im seen as anything other than just female, I feel like my actual self is not being seen. And even well meaning people like the one above putting herself in a different category to me, female, (and by default, putting me in the ''gay male'' category) shows just how very difficult it is for me to be seen as anything other than purely female, if I let my past be known.

I generally don't disclose my past, or intersex status, (other than on this forum) because if I do, most people will not treat me merely as a female. I'll always be tied down to my past, and a gender which I never identified as. The fact I am more or less genetically female, probably is the final irony of the whole thing. To me, I dont have memories of ''being a boy''. But of being a girl brought up as a boy, and how immensely traumatizing that was for me growing up. Im invisible, because the only way I can stay sane, is to stay away from people entirely. I cant, and never have been able to live the life of a normal woman, and inside, that is all I have ever been. So my true self, the real me, has never been allowed to prosper, or flourish. Its tied down like an eternal prisoner, never to be set free. I havent been able to persue my dreams, I cant freely enter into relationships the way any other normal female can, just the basic things in life have been a huge struggle for me.

Im sure some people on this forum have been taken aback by my brutal honesty about the way my condition, and being brought up as the wrong gender has (and does) make me feel. Its like ''oh, you're different from the norm, just accept it and be proud of it" and stuff like that. But I never wanted to be different from the norm, in fact, its always deeply hurt me that Ive never been able to live my life as a normal woman. Being a certain sexuality is totally different. Not having your gender recognised strikes you at the very core of your being. It makes you feel less than human. And I guess that is the main reason I refer to myself as ''invisible soul''. I dont feel like a part of society, or the human race, so Im inivisible. I feel completely dehumanised, and it is a feeling that if you havent experienced, it really is impossible to imagine how painful, and how empty that makes you feel inside. Im not going to pull any punches, and if being brutally honest about how I feel makes people uncomfortable, well...thats probably just a tiny taste of the discomfort I feel when Im being reffered to as anything other than purely female.

Thanks QP, I feel like you actually do understand me.

 

IS, it seems like you are so miserable. Have you ever heard that song "Always look on the bright side of life" That is my favorite song. Instead of dwelling on everything shit that has happened, what you need to do is do whatever you can to forget that, or just think of it all as something that made you stronger. (which its obviously not so far) the thing is you just need to change the way you think. LSD is amazing for that.
Sure, you aren't "normal". But if thats how society is going to treat you, then you know what, give society the same crap and don't tell them anything about your "past" just lie to everyone if thats what will make you happy, tell them you have always been a normal woman. If you really want to forget your past, you can just pretend it didn't happen. I am really good at controlling my mind the way I want to, so I understand these concepts might be harder for others.