Following on from the comparison being made between the 'bum fights' programme and porn I was wondering how people on here really view it? As a reasonably typical male I'm not going to deny that I can enjoy watching it. I'm a very visual person and stimulated by what I can see, I'm not gonna give myself a hard time about that ... but where does that put me in the scheme of things when it comes to exploitation, am I doing wrong if I watch porn? Am I encouraging an evil trade? When I was younger (about 12 years ago) I spent a year working in the industry, selling videos in Soho. I was hard up at the time and attracted to the silly amount of money I could earn to get nicked if the police raided the shop (£100 to £140 a day in 1992). I got nicked 4 times under the obscene publications act for being the 'front man' in the shop, the bosses paid the fines and I ended up being banned from the West End by the courts. (Judge me if you will but my past is my past). Also because hard core porn was illegal to sell in the UK most of the films were pirated, this meant that the production companies earned nothing from the shops. Many of the people working in the sex shops of Soho blow their money on drugs etc. Even with the piracy of the UK porn trade, the industry is huge. It generates massive profits for all involved ... including the people who appear in the films, the women in the films usually earn more than men because men are just seen as props. This is because of the market that is out there. The demand is huge. Surveys show that most people getting on the net for the first time will go straight to porn sites. Remember this isn't a male dominated thing either. A huge amount of women like porn too, although the market is geared towards men's tastes. Looking back on my experience with this industry I'm wondering if it is really any more exploitative than someone being forced to work in a factory on a shit wage, packing boxes or similar stuff harmful to self respect. Or is it less exploitative because many people in the porn industry have gone on to better things as a result of the money they earn? Both male and female porn stars have ended up running their own production companies etc. Many have relationships and most are not drug dependent. There have even been a couple of politicians in Italy who are ex-porn stars. I'm not talking about the extreme stuff here, I've seen my share of nasties ... there is a dark side of the whole thing that feeds on those who are desperate ... I'm mainly talking about general porn and the way it is marketed/controlled. Also what about people who make porn because they get a kick from exhibiting themselves? It is out there, mainly through fetish clubs and the BDSM scene but not all porn is done by professional production companies. Could the people who cry "exploitation" at the first sign of naked flesh be making too much of an issue of sexuality when it really is only sex and something that should by rights be no big deal? *ponders*
Yes, but the deal is, that not all these porn actors and actresses would actually enjoy making porn. Some would go through great pain just to make porn. Even though i am male. porn is just a celebration of men's power. porn treats people like they are packages of anatomical parts, rather like cuts of meat arranged on a butcher's slab.
This is sometimes true, but people can go through great pain to do many things in life, many people get into it knowing what they are getting into, no press gangs, no coercion, only the bribe of a good wage. Even when the production company has a woman at the head? You may be right in many cases but I wouldn't say that this was entirely true in all cases, you could argue that it just recognises a difference between male and female sexuality that already exists. In many cases yes it does, but most industry in the world treats workers like they are expendable, there to be dumped when they are no longer needed. I'm not saying that the porn industry isn't exploitative. I'm merely questioning the level of exploitation when compared to other ways to earn money and considering it within the framework of my own experiences.
I need to draw a distinction before I discuss this. On the one hand, you have pornography. I regard pornography as images designed to sexually stimulate which treat women as sexual objects and appeal to the lowest common denominator. On the other hand, you have erotica. Erotica I regard as any image designed to sexually stimulate which treats women with respect and appeals through subtlety to our sexuality. These are way, way, way from perfect definitions, but the nature of the beast is that there's an abundance of grey areas. Most material, however, should ft easily into one of these two categories. I think you could safely say that at least 99% of on-line material could be described as pornography according to these definitions. So to be clear, when I express the following opinions, they're strictly related to pornography - not erotica. Pornography doesn't turn me on. I find it sad, offensive, disturbing, degrading and vile. Just looking at pornography makes me angry - it makes me angry that people have taken advantage of women to produce these images, it makes me angry that women have so little respect for themselves that they'll participate in making these images, it makes me angry that pornographers have such a cheap view of human sexuality that they believe men will want these images, it makes me angry that men do have such a shallow view of sexuality that they want these images, it makes me angry that men are prepared to perpetuate this vile trade by purchasing such images, and it makes me angry that these images are contributing to the perpetuation of the denigration of human sexuality. I mean really - two 'lesbians' with shaved cunts, soaping each other up, moaning, playing with dildos...... puhhhhleeeease! Who the fuck finds this shit erotic? It's pathetic. It's my idea of hell! I think part of the problem has been the consumer society and the objectification of sexuality. We (men) aren't encouraged to see women as equals with whom we want to participate in a mutual sexual relationship. We're encouraged to view them as objects to consume and possess. I have work colleagues who've been to prostitutes and see nothing wrong with this, whereas I regard it as a small step removed from rape. If you sleep with a prostitute, you're fucking someone who doesn't really want to be fucked by you. So does paying her money to put up with it make it any better than rape? Maybe by the smallest of margins. But then women are objects - they can be purchased - so we don't need to worry, do we? We also live in a world where we're constantly seeking instant and increasing gratification. People don't want to spend time with sex. They want it now. If they get bored, they want it different - anal, scat, bondage, fisting..... bigger, more intense, harder, nastier. Does anyone ever stop to think that more might be less? Why does pornography generally feature naked women, every nook and cranny exposed to the camera in bright lighting? Am I alone in finding subtlety erotic? Am I alone in believing that the hint of nudity can be more powerful that nudity itself? Am I alone in finding low lighting and shadows more erotic that the glare of studio lighting? Pornography has cheapened our attitude to sex. We're complicit in a process that degrades everyone involved. Women are the victims, but men, in turn, are allowing our sexuality to be stolen, repackaged, and sold back to us as something cheap and nasty. We've become consumers of our own sexuality. And we've sat back and allowed it to happen.
here here dok! couldn't have said it better myself. tis good to know that theres at least some men out there who view things from their heads-and NOT the below the belt variety..... thanks for that stu! namaste x x x
I agree somewhat, but it's like saying which came first, the chicken or the egg? How do you class the degeneration of sexuality? Maybe people make too much emphasis on a "loving sexual relationship" when really it is just a physical act that can be whatever you want it to be. I sometimes get angry that people make sex to be something more than just a basic animalistic instinct. I think sex should be whatever you want it to be. Both men and women can both find porn stimulating, some couples watch porn together. To say that it is just men who are to blame is a bit of a myth in my opinion. What about gay porn ... who is being exploited there? Or what about the lapdancing clubs where a woman may regard men as being the weak ones, being parted from their money in return for a few cheap thrills? At least one of my ex-girlfriends actually, but that's another story entirely . If you ask women what porn they like to watch many will admit to enjoying seeing women together. (Or they're just telling me that to keep me happy ) But, generally speaking, men and women are sexually different anyway, people enjoy different practices, some men prefer a more dominant woman and some women prefer a more dominant man. Equality has little to do with it, people can have different roles within their sexuality but still see their partner as an equal. Plus a lot of people's sexuality stems from their upbringing and childhood taboos. I agree with this but don't think instant gratification is just limited to sex, it's everything from instant entertainment in the form of television to going to macdonalds 'cos you can't be arsed to cook. Or is it exploiting something in human sexuality that has always been there? People only become consumers if they want to be ... so could it be the demand that has created the supply and not the way that you are suggesting?
I agree. But I think the modern world has provided a unique opportunity for the packaging and marketing of sex as a commodity. The porn inudustry is certainly perpetuating a problem at this stage. I doubt that problem would vanish if the porn industry was closed down - but it'd certainly help. Are you comfortable with the images that are now freely available to any child with an internet connection? I thought I'd explained that? I regard it as the commodification of sex, and the portrayal of women as objects that provide a service - objects we can purchase, own and fuck. That physical act can still involve two consenting adults who treat each other with respect and view sex as something that involves two people interacting with each other rather than one person 'doing' something to the other one. Most porn effectively treats women as passive objects. What if you want it to be rape? That's a basic animalistic instinct. What if you want it to be fucking girls as soon as they've reached puberty? That's a basic animalistic instinct. Oh come on Paul, get real. Sure, there are exceptions, but the porn industry is predominantly owned and dominated by men. Women are the main victims of the porn industry. Yes, gay porn exploits men, but that's like saying that black people aren't the main victims of racism just because the chinese also suffer attacks. Yeah, so women are now denigrated to the point where they no longer even recognise that they're being abused. Most women I've ever spoken to don't find porn attractive. Period. That's not to say there aren't exceptions - of course there are. It's impossible to discuss a subject as wide as human sexuality without there being. If you have the need to dominate or be dominated sexually, you have a problem IMHO. Absoutely. It's all part of the same problem. Of course it's always been there. If it hadn't been, it couldn't have been expolited. But you could say exactly the same for paedophilia. Just because there's something within human nature, it doesn't mean it should be encouraged and marketed. As any economist will tell you, demand is not static. Demand can be manipulated and created. Look at all the shit we buy - is it shit we really need, or is it shit we've been convinced we need? I have no doub that pornogrpahy appeals to an aspect of human sexuality that's always been present. But I also believe it appeals to the lowest common denominator, and encourages the worst aspects of our sexuality to flourish, while discouraging the healthy development of our sexuality. Porn's like a big mac. People know it's shit. They know it doesn't do them any good. They know a decent meal would be better and tastier - but they choose the instant gratification of ths burger. Doesn't make it a good thing.
Sorry. Allow me to correct myself. If you have a desire to dominate or to be dominated, then you have a problem, IMHO. I know, I know. It's controversial, but I don't regard many sexual practices/preferences as mentally or emotionally healthy. I mean, where does it come from, this desire to dominate or be dominated?
Well moving away from porn for a minute that point can be argued with all sexual practices. Oral sex? well is it really normal to want to stick your genitalia in your partners mouth? Who thought up that vile and abusive practice? (said with tongue in cheek) Homosexuality, it isn't procreation so it isn't normal or healthy. Sex is for making babies isn't it? In fact any sexual practice that isn't done solely for reproduction is surely deviating away from what it was designed to be. My argument mainly is one mans meat is another mans poison. People should be free to express their sexuality as they see fit (as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else). I don't smoke as I consider it unhealthy ... but it's none of my business if someone else chooses to smoke, eat junk, slob on a sofa all day or pick their nose and eat it ... Who am I to judge if something else is right or wrong if nobody is being harmed?
Oral sex isn't really the same as a desire to dominate or be dominated though, is it? I don't think I was arguing that 'deviation' was unhealthy. You seem to be stretching my point a little. Fucking hell, Paul. I didn't say it should be illegal! What, so you don't have any opinions? Why the fuck is it that as soon as anyone opens their mouth and expresses an opinion around here, they're 'judging' someone. Following this reasoning, it'd be impossible to have an opinion on anything.
Absolutely not. In fact on a forum site that I run I go to great lengths to protect minors. True but I'm talking about consent here. yep I'm not denying that women are the main victims ... but I'm all for fairness here and you can't say that it is only men victimising women, which is the impression I got from reading your initial post. I also think that women are claiming a place in the industry more and more now. Just like they are in many positions in society. I'm not sure I agree with that ... ok what about a women's hen night where they all screaming over a troupe of male strippers. The men don't have to be there and neither do the women. I guess we're talking grey areas again as I haven't got enough experience of this to really comment further. We're talking personal experience and mine seems to differ to yours. Who can tell why ... maybe I attract a different type of woman to you. I can see where you're coming from but without getting into Freudian analyis of human development its not an easy thing to understand fully ... or even condemn. I guess that boils down to what society deems as acceptable. Paedophilia occurs in the animal kingdom but isn't acceptable in our modern society. No it shouldn't be marketed, neither should any labour ... but then we come back to the move against capitalism and how little it values human beings. No arguments from me there The only thing I'd question would be the use of the word "worse". It seems to add an element of shame to sexuality. In my opinion, no sex between consenting adults should really be judged as best or worst. It's all a matter of personal taste. I've been single for 4 years, I'm happy that way as I can do the things I want without the constraints of a relationship. I'm not against it completely but being involved with someone doesn't suit me at this time in my life. I don't go without sex, I'm honest about my needs/wants and have never payed for it (not even porn). I consider that as being quite healthy. It would also be healthy if I was to change my mind and settle down with the right person. Each to their own. It would be interesting to see what human sexuality would be like without the constant electronic stimulation that we have nowadays.
Well this is part of the problem. The nature of the porn 'industry' is such that it is now easily accessible and therefore having a direct impact on the sexuality of children. You were talking about sex as an animalistic instinct. My point was that this is too simplistic a way of seeing it. Rape is an animalistic instinct, but it doesn't make it good. I think the evolution of sex into something more than just an animalistic instinct is a good and healthy thing. Also, as a side point, there are many examples of species out there that mate with one partner for life. I'm not advocating this as the only viable form of human sexual expression, but it illustrates that it's a bit simplistic to look to the animal kingdom for a definition of sexuality. No, that's not what I was saying. I was saying that women are by far and away the main victims of the 'industry'. It still won't change the fact that pornography is denigrating, and it won't change the fact that it's an industry requiring victims. Yes, there are grey areas, but there's still a real difference in this example - it's the men who have the power. The women are playing. They don't want to fuck the men. However, remove law and order, and who do you think would be at risk in that environment? The men or the women? Well I wasn't only talking about women that I've slept with. I was talking about a wide variety of women with whom I've discussed the topic. This comes down to a matter of opinion I guess. But I certainly don't remember condemning anyone.... No offence Paul, but I really think you're projecting your issues onto me here. I've never suggested any element of shame should be connected with any aspect of sexuality, whether I regard that expression of sexuality healthy or not. Why not? Would you say the same about diet? If you saw a guy stuffing five big macs down his throat, would it not be reasonable to say that such an activity would be worse than, say, eating a salad? Or would you still argue that it's all a matter of personal taste? Sex, like anything else, can be healthy or unhealthy. You don't have to 'judge' someone in order to have an opinion on that. Paul dude... you really are projecting here. I never made any comments about casual sex being bad. I never even suggested that a loving relationship was the best environment for sexual expression. Absolutely. It's also be interesting to see how our attitude to sex evoloved once it was no longer a commodity.
And I'll expand on that by saying I might have misread other stuff you posted ... maybe I'm being a little on the defensive because of my own experiences.
right i ahdnt notied this thread before so heres my pennies worth. Firstly i would like to say for me there are two types of sex, there is 'making love' and there is sex and there is very clear differences, to make love it must be magical, take over your mind and spirit and be like fireworks ok maybe slightly ott but there must be love and trust and beauty and all teh stuff poems are writen about, and then there is sex, which is porn, prostitution and one night stands, all of which in my mind are completely accetable. Right to what you have said so far.... Both men and women can both find porn stimulating, some couples watch porn together. To say that it is just men who are to blame is a bit of a myth in my opinion. What about gay porn ... who is being exploited there? i totally agree porn can be wonderful but i dont like it to be comercialised to much and I tend to watch stuff that either is home video or ment to look like home video lol Sorry. Allow me to correct myself. If you have a desire to dominate or to be dominated, then you have a problem, IMHO. I know, I know. It's controversial, but I don't regard many sexual practices/preferences as mentally or emotionally healthy. This really rubbed me up the wrong way, I realise this is your poinion but it says to me ignorence rather than opinion. you are about to get a rant but i cant help it....WEll as you have liekly come across the fact I am a full time Mistress to Whispera, this si something i take both extremely seriously and have great fun with, Claire suffers from manic depression, this means she suffers from sever mood swings and rarely felt valued before we met, she needs constant reassurence that I am not going to run off and that I really do love her. The security and love she gets from being needed and not just valued is amasing, she is at last calmed downa nd she seems happy, the security and assurence that an engagement ring can bring is wonderful. None of this is about power other than the exchange of it, if you could see her sometimes it would make you cry with ahppiness and I ofen do(much to her giggles it is true) but i am diverging so on i go next quote... Oh come on Paul, get real. Sure, there are exceptions, but the porn industry is predominantly owned and dominated by men. Women are the main victims of the porn industry. Yes, gay porn exploits men oh come on you cant be serious, men are exploting woman this is the wrong way round, have a look at some of the escorts prices(I knowI have done this type of work as well as some porn) its well and truely the idiots that are paying these prices that are being exploted. Perhaps you should know that for an hours booking with an escort you get nothing more than say a massage, some oral or sex and a chat, thats all nothing fancy but men pay in excess of 100 quid for this. And the porn I made a booking for us(me and a gf) was 500 quid an hour this might be fortunate but I am not sure it is, I know of others who amde far more than this so I dont think they are being exploted. i loved amking it, it wasfun, not at all serious, ok hard exhasting work and I couldn do more than a 4 hours at a time, and not more than a few days a week in a row but it was fun, and it was soo much fun to watch yourself. Most women I've ever spoken to don't find porn attractive. Period. That's not to say there aren't exceptions - of course there are. It's impossible to discuss a subject as wide as human sexuality without there being. Well they are not the type of woman i know, most of the woman i know once they get past the orginal shyness of telling you they do watch it and like it they talk away about what they want to see how they would improve it etc. I dont mean to be rude or disregard your opinions but perhaps the woman you have spoken to jsut couldnt admit they liked it to you? i dunno i dont knwo teh woman for all i know u were tlaking to nuns lol well as you can see i have some experience of this and i have quite strong feelings about this, i think men might like to think that have all this power over woman but infact they dont woman are slowly taking about control over what tey do. Feel free to challenge what I say as this is what makes these places good but I thought it was important that you saw both a womans opinion and some one who has been in the industry (well a little bit) Love as always Ailsa xxx
I found this on another board - it's an interview with a female porn director. It's not good. Even women victimise women. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/porn/interviews/borden.html "And when the feminists and liberals say you're degrading your friend the actress here and you're degrading women by portraying them this way, what do you say? They're degrading, no matter what. Everyone gets degraded. I mean, even if she was a secretary in the office, she's going to get some kind of harassment, whether sexual or verbal -- you know? So this is normal. Women get degraded every day, and so do men." She also advocates physical violence against women and seems to be of the opinion that exploitation doesn't matter because "I'm exploiting people, taking all my inner demons and aggression on them. But it's good for me. So I guess that's all that matters."
"even women victimise women" great point yeh we do get sexually harrased etc in the work place... porn confirms to men that this attitude is ok. I mean, porn in newspapers? what message does that give out... *sigh* Cxxx
My personal opinion... *hides* is that a lot of these (what i would call weird) sexual practices stem from either abuse or inadequacy... I've had a fucked up view of sex in the past *dies with embarrassment* cos of things that happened to me before... learning to have a loving relationship and not associate sex with being scared / dominated has been a huge step for me. Fun is important in sex, but so is respect. Power and vacant thrills should not be attached to making love in my opinion.... we're worth more (men and women). Porn perpetuates the myth that women are a toy... it spreads into the workplace and social situations. Nakedness and sexy women aren't the problem as such... it's the way they are presented and percieved.
