I live in Berkeley and have many friends who are vegans. I enjoy their company and have even considered becoming vegan myself, however there is a moral dillema I cannot overcome and was hoping for some insight from others, since my friends can not seem to address my concerns with a solid argument. I realize that vegans care alot about the suffering of animals and that is to be respected. However, I feel that in order to devote ones life to a certain philosophy it is an obligation of that person to seek totality in their beliefs. My problem lies with the disregard for "lesser" lifeforms such as insects amongst the vegan community. Millions of insects and rodents are killed during the harvest of vegetables. Some of my friends do grow their own vegetables hydroponically and that does address this issue, however most do not. I realize that this is not exactly a new argument but bear with me because know one can seem to give me an honest answer. Every time I ask one of my vegan friends how they feel about the killing of insects during the harvest of the food they eat, they either respond with a) I don't think that happens b) Well we should try to limit the suffering Well obviously the first response is out of the question, but on to the second. Yes, limiting the suffering of animals is commendable, as I have said before, but to disregard the lives of millions of organisms is just as cruel as killing a cow. Normally this is where someone will either give up or start to argue that "insects can not feel pain". I am an entomologist and this is not true. Sure, insects do not have anywhere near the concious realization of their pain like humans, but the pain is still there. More importantly, the will to live is still there. If you poke an insect with a pencil, it will run away out of fear. Instinct or not, it will run away. It wants to live. It does not want to die. Yet vegans endorse the killing of these creatures. Why? Because we can not communicate with them like we can with apes? Because they are stupid? Because they are trivial. I doubt an insect would feel that way. These are the same rationalizations that omnivores use to justify the slaughter of innocent cows. They are stupid. They are trivial. Consider the carp in the pond analogy. A being higher than ourselves may see humans moving about the earth and think, "whats wrong with them? don't they understand the trivial nature of their existence?" I don't mean to be condacending, but it really is all about perspective. You can not tell me that those insects do not want to live. Why do you disregard their lives and protect the life of a cute cow? What is your rationale?
I try not to kill bugs...i do believe they want to live. I wish there was a way to live/eat without killing them accidentally, and I try to save bug's lives when I can. I've pulled my car over to get a bug off my windshield, when most would have just turned on their wipers. But... I think I would much rather be an insect killed in the harvest of vegetables, than a cow/pig/chicken, etc. tortured my entire life and killed inhumanely as most "meat" is. I guess I "rationalize" it in my mind with the fact that insects are not bred specifically for us to kill/eat and are not tortured and raised in terrible conditions.
Voyager, I go with answer B. Well we should try to limit the suffering. Not because I think that insects do not feel pain or are less worthy. All the cows and pigs and all other animals raised for consumption also eat crops, a lot more than a person could. What is is 16 lbs of plant matter to produce 1lb of animal meat? (not sure of the exact figure but it's something like that) So to eat a pound of beef is not only killing a cow, but also killing all those insects and rodents destroyed in the "production" of that cow. There is no such thing as 0% harm. It's not possible. Hope that kinda made sense.. gotta run.
To sustain your own life, there has to be some degree of harm that you must do. Vegans try to reduce their impact of suffering on other sentients. Yes, bugs die during the harvest, but those crops can either go to feed humans or cows, as toothfairy said. And besides, my family grows our own vegetables spring through fall. It's a step forward and it reduces my impact on the earth, not to mention the suffering of animals and insects. 3littlebirds: That's great that you do that. I care for bugs also, being the inferior creatures that they are (lol). I refused to kill bugs for a biology experiment last year... and I even prefer to collect bugs and put them outside when there are bugs in the house/school/wherever. Many times, I've scooped a spider or cricket into a piece of paper and escorted them back to nature. I've even been patronized for it many times. (especially when some hillbilly thinks it is hillarious to step on a spider AS I am scooping it up) I even try to educate others about this. This is a great argument you've brought up, voyager. The reason vegans (to quote you) 'disregard their lives and protect the life of a cute cow' is because bugs aren't tortured their entire lives. And some death is unavoidable. We try to do what we can, but we can't do everything. We are not gods.
Vegan ideology is, as I understand it, simply that humans do not have the right and should not use animals for our own desires, be it food, clothes, labor, etc. So really veganism in and of itself has nothing to do with the suffering of wild insects or animals that happen to get killed in the farming of our food. Veganism is only against the exploitation of animals. Having compassion for those that suffer is something else.
walker brings an issue forward: while some vegans are on a total purity trip (and are as insufferable as any person on a purity trip) it is about not using sentient life forms in a "slave" or "commodity" point of view. all people kill to eat. even vegans. The trick for a lot of vegetarians and vegans is to make that as low on the food chain as possible. One could argue that frutarians are participating in plant abortions by not allowing the seeds to fall, so someone looking for the negative WILL find it. Also, Voyager, the bugs and rodents argument has been used here by trolls many times, it seems to be the new version of carrots can scream, and it DOES make your post suspect, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. As an argument, it falls short since omnivore also eat plants, plus they eat plants harvested and fed to animals which are notoriously inefficient machines. I don't ascribe to vegans being "better people." Every choice you make to live has a trade off. If you wear (and this is my personal example) Chaco sandals (a petrol product) over leather, you ARE wearing something that will take a long, long time in landfill to break down after you have worn the components out. You can resole and take good care of them, like one does a bike or car, or house, but there comes a day when they have to no longer be Chacos. Aside from leather,which I cannot support in my heart under the methods of raising practised today, I will endeavor to make a planetary choice, or at least buffer the less than ideal choice I made. Ideal would be having the money to use hemp, with its wear out, but I don't. So I make my Chacos last and last. My pairs were bought in 1998 and 2002, respectively. I have an issue with non leather shoes that are worn for only a short while and then replaced. In this, I am conservative! If I had an option of tanned roadkill, that might change things. also: I don't personally have issues with subsistence hunting, or people who raise, and slaughter all of their own meat. I can't, but that's only me.
Yeah I agree with what others said.. its just not really possible.. But it does bother me that my vegetarian friend who is about animal rights kills spiders and bugs all the time... I just don't get that. And I even have a bug phobia, but I don't kill them... (well ants and mosquitos really piss me off) But that is intentional.. whereas the bugs that are killed for other reasons are just difficult to get around.
Thanks for the input. Sorry if I sounded hostile, I guess living in Berkeley and having people constantly giving me soapbox lectures on why I am the problem with America gets a little old. Your answers have been better than what my friends could offer. I've been giving the whole thing alot of thinking and it does seem like a rational choice to try and limit suffering, even if you do end up doing some harm. I'll have to look into the health aspect of a vegan diet before I make any sudden changes, although there are alot of really good vegan resturants here in Berkeley Do any of you have any information concerning what sort of supplements are needed to compensate for the lack of meat/dairy? I've heard stories of vitamins being made with less than desirable ingredients that sometimes end up being made from animals anyway...
by health aspects of being vegan.... do you mean.... health benefits? Supplements aren't always necessary, but they are helpful. Including variety in your diet, you can get the proper amount of protein and calcium that is needed. B12 would be the only problem I can see though... maybe somebody else can help you with that.
I would simply use a movie quote from Nicholson in the movie "Goin' South".To wit:"I'll do all I can do,but that's all I can do".
Voyager, have a look at the FAQ and those links; they cover a lot of basic questions for newbies. Really the main problem I remember from my early days transitioning to lacto-veg (and that was 1980, so if I have forgotten, I think it is understandable) was going from dense to not so dense food (I defaulted to salads and extra veggies, and did NOT increase any dairy, or grains) so I was pretty hungry, even for a teenager. Once it got through to me that I was only fueling my tank partway, I wised up and learned all about whole grains, and yogurt. Ok, I cheated and fried a bit more food than I did before, but it worked to get me over cravings humps.
