paganism in sufism

i posted this in 'paganism' too
but thought it might be good to post it here too.


okay so i've been studying shu'em, a sufi-shamanic way of life and mostly a way of healing.
now i've been reading about sufism alot and it takes it's 'roots' from all kindsa things, and also animism and shamanism.
now some people say this is not true at all and think that idea comes from misunderstanding the islam, while other see the influences on sufism as pre-islamic and non-islamic. okay this is a weird story lol.
what i want to know is, in what aspects of sufism do you recognize paganism?

 

I figure there are going to be similarities between religions (especially the mystical sects) given that all religions are different paths to the same mountaintop. The mystical ones just happen to be near the top, so they all look alike. Islam, for all they'd like to sever their links to pagan religions, can never do so, for the very fact that the Allah they seek is the same as the Brahman/godhead in the pagan religions. A rose by any other name...

 

First of all, the word sufi comes from wearing wollen clothes.

There are some sufis who worship their tareeqahs/spirtual leaders and others who claim that Allah is inside them, others who sing innovated disgusting invocations in which they invoke the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) or sufi "saints" and another group who make permissble to invoke dead people at graveses to ask for intercession etc
Alla of these things are against islam and contradict monoteism, worship is for Allah alone and this is the most important pillar of Islam

 

it also comes from the words
sophia (greek) that means wisdom
saf, the wol that you're talking about, and thats PURE wol

sufi means: pure wisdom


i have no idea what you are trying to say there but it seems to me you feel the need
to bring down sufism and protect the islam.

what you explain there is far from what sufism is about.
it is about the infinite love for and from one god.
one truth.
a truth that is in, around, from and of all.

sufism is about love.

about the believe that everything is a reflection of god.

sufism is not about what you said,
just like christianity is not about going to church.

 

Oh Lordy... a woman giving some guy rap over Islam.

 

i have all but respect for the islam.
i just asked a question about sufism,
alot of the muslim literature comes from sufi's.
it's not a woman givin' a guy a rap over islam...
it is a woman who is utterly confused about how disgusting a guy raps about sufism
while sufism is the mystic side of islam too
also...i dunno how it is where you guys are but here you hear it quite alot, that muslims are looking into sufism and are connecting with that spiritual side too.

 

LLL - dude isn't saying Sufiism is the mystic side of Islam.

He's saying that it has Islamic trappings but prays to spirits and other beings, which is EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN by Islam.

Like someone saying "I'm vegetarian but I eat steak". Huh?

Funny thing is in any Islamic country you'd probably be flogged or shot for questioning this.

 

i like that
that's a good perspective to have...

 

iron goth - i'm sure that 'vegie - steak' thing would make sense...

but it's begging the reality of islam being the True religion
which, i can't sya anyyyything about, i cherish everyone's beliefs.
begging the reality means taking for granted that THAT is true to state your argument.

lisa is interested in sufism, not how it contradicts the assumed truths of another religion, but how a group of people come together as One, to grow towards truth.

as far as i know (and i did nooo research on this, but i remember we went over it a while ago in religion class), sufists(?) look up to 'higher' sufists.
these 'higher' folks aren't ordained and aren't classssified, per say, they are just respected amoung the community because they TRULY are wise.
it is up to the INDIVIDUAL (you me her him) as to who they seek... but again, these people who seek this way of life do not just LAP up all their words...

when the individual finds a soul he wants to study under, they submit to them for as long and as freely as the individual wants to* these 'higher' sufists are called sheikh's, they're like a scholar or elder.
the followers of the sheikh are called talibe, they create a group - a family.
but, there is ALWAYS exchanging of idea. they work together to grow towards Truth.
Tariqa means sufi brotherhood* =)
they are also called Mourides, in central africa, which means seekers of God.
they are SEEKING, they dont KNOW. they are open to grow in wisdom =)
they recognize the Godliness and Love in everything, and only wish to develope a closer relationship with such Objectivity and Truth.

(yeah, i whipped out my notes from class =P)

most are pety traders, merchants. free.
the extent of their mystisms is up to the individual*** all that is required is an open mind, an open heart, and a will for wisdom =)

 

I understand that, but if Islam is about submission to the will of Allah as revealed by the Prophet Muhammad's writings given to him via the Angel Gabriel, then what are you doing looking elsewhere for wisdom?

I mean, call it what you like, but not Islam.

 

erm..but but but...erm...


okay i think i understand what you're saying with the veggie/steak deal,
but...what i know is that some sufi say that it is strictly forbidden, not possible and are disgusted by the idea of paganism in sufism.
but they forget that there are alot of sufi-ways that take their influence
from pre and non islamic sources, hermetic things(how do you call em )
the origin is egyptian mysticism later on also islamic influences, not part of the islam. as a sufi you don't have to be a muslim while muslims do practice sufism -the non pagan influenced one- because it became the spiritual part of the islam. but that sufism is part of the islam but that is just some sufi orders saying that, other sufi orders have very little almost nothing to do with the islam at all.

and so...why is he saying that, it's not my question if its okay by the islam or by allah...it is a question about a big part of sufism that, like it or not, has influences/origins in pre-islamic mystic believes.

or am i still not getting this

 

true enough =).

i guess it's more like the thousands of different churches.
sometimes a group of folks dont just lap up one interpretation.

seems like the sufists understand Allah/God is in everything, and cherish that, but work together to develope wisdom from experience/mystism.
which aint right or wrong - it all depends on where you stand with your belief of what being true

 

RE: okay i think i understand what you're saying with the veggie/steak deal,
but...what i know is that some sufi say that it is strictly forbidden, not possible and are disgusted by the idea of paganism in sufism.

? Right, but if they're looking outside the Koran and the Hadith, they're not Muslim, right?

RE: but they forget that there are alot of sufi-ways that take their influence
from pre and non islamic sources, hermetic things(how do you call em )

Doesn't matter what they're called. They're putting faith in stuff that does not come from the Koran or Hadith.

RE: the old tradition is egyptian mysticism which later on also islamic influences.

Egyptians didn't worship allah but Idols. Alien gods. Demons.

RE: and so...why is he saying that, it's not my question if its okay by the islam or by allah...it is a question about a big part of sufism that, like it or not, has influences/origins in pre-islamic mystic believes.

Well sure, my only point is you can see why Muslims have a problem with Sufiism and bristle at the idea that it's being called "mystic Islam".

If Islam is about surrender to God as revealed to the world via Mohammed then you should NOT be looking elsewhere. Not to Nuit, not to Krishna, not to anyone.

 

well, i'm just talking out of my arse lisa, but, it seems that the sufists are after True wisdom. they are smart enough to not begin with any pre-interpreted assumed truths.
that's why they've returned to the land, maybe? like animists and other paganistic religions have? evennn thoughhhh, animists do assume everything has a spirit, etc, which who's to say is true or not? but, ehh, you know what i'm saying =)
all religions are based off something, ground up.
some from words of a prophet.
some from the earth.

i guess these wisdom seekers like to start from what's True =)



about sufism and islam... i can't say two words in that discussion. all i know is that in anthropology of religion class at the university, we discussed them in the same discussions

 

oo oo oo, here's straight outta my notes, lisa, you'll like this =)

"Sufi = mystics of the Divine
*poetry, music, dance
**focused other ways to contact w/ God
~some meditated, excluded themselves from society, to establish closer contact and relation - less outside influence

 

yip, its like the different churches thing. there are different sufi orders, and
some fit in with the islam, but a whole lotta lot dont and so i agree with the muslims i guess, it shouldn't be called mystic islam, but just sufism.
cuz most sufi orders are a combination of the wisdom
of the qur'an and pre-islamic traditions
my question was about the the sufi orders
that don't fit in with the islam then i guess...
(doesn't mean i don't respect the islam, i never said i think
it is good or bad or whatever in the way it thinks about sufism.
i have respect for muslims as much as for christians, sufi and so on)

 

***lisa sets peace***
=)

 

yeah i like that! =D
thanks ethan =)

 

so i guess if you want to truly embark on this more seriously, you just gotta search for a sheikh that you respect and admire**
but just the same, seems like you're learning alllll around you and inside yourself at such a beautiful progress =)
if it's meant to happen, you'll cross paths with who you're lookin for =)

 

it was never my intention to say anything bad about the islam
or to say something that irritates muslims or anybody for that matter.
i just wanted to ask this, not knowing this was a big deal...
sorry for saying 'mystic islam', it's my lack of knowledge people
not disrespect!