Lets have a discussion about feedback

I'm looking at the forum description

A place for writers to discuss their craft and share ideas.

So lets have a think about feedback, when you post a written piece on here what feedback would you like from people?

Or maybe more importantly when you give feedback what effect do you wish it to have on people, if you don't like a piece or think it coud be improved, are you concerned about the feelings of the person that wrote it?

For me I think it can go both ways, feedback can sometimes seem so harsh that the feeling of being insulted over rides me listening to what the person is actually saying, but I don't want to live in a world that is so PC that no body says anything that is any use, because it always has to be ever so pleasent, so we don't risk offending anyone.

So as a group on the writers forum, how do we give feedback?
how do we recieve it? and how important is it anyway?
S

 

well, i think that in a community of writers, people need to be tough enough to take any criticism that's coming their way. the world can be cruel, way crueler than a few people on a webpage. on the other had, what's the point of being a prick? this is a forum where people are putting their art, and by association, their souls right out there for people, and asking for help getting it tuned up. being a prick just to draw attention to yourself is childish. can't stand sharing the spotlight? grow up. get over it.

 

Well, when you're giving feedback I think it's pretty standard to give the positives first, and the negatives second. Some good examples of feedback sentences are:

+
"You have good ---- and ----"
"I think there is potential in ----"

-
"you should work on..."
"I'd like to see more...."

I think everyone should be required to say at least two positives and two negatives. I think it's also important to realize that it doesn't matter if you liked it or not, it's more about what you thought about the characters, plot, story, images, etc.

Also, I see a lot of 'well, I was just writing it for me and I don't really care what anyone thinks'. If that's true, why post it at all?? You should only post complete works (or complete chapters of unfinished works) that you feel are ready to be criticized, and you should definitely not get upset if someone doesn't think it's working, unless that person is being a really unhelpful jerk and just out to say negative shit to try to hurt people's feelings.

 

well, i think that claiming that you're posting only for yourself is a defensive reflex and should be taken as such. some people are venturing out for the first time, and if they're like myself, they grew up with a hyper-critical father who never had anything good to say. it's a tender spot, but i think they should be encouraged. i've avoided posting here because i don't have the confidence to take something like that yet, it's too near and dear.

 

I think sometimes people post just for the sake of sharing a story. They might not be looking for critique.

I also think that sometimes people get caught up in thinking they have to critique. Like the restaurant journalist that simply has to find a fault somewhere for the sake of filling out a formula. Sometimes you need to put the red pen down and just enjoy the piece.

I know for myself that when I post something that I've already completed, edited a few times, had my husband edit it, that I'm not looking for pages of critique. I don't mind it, and I know folk are trying to be helpful but in that situation, I was just looking to share.

Uncompleted work is all fair game though. Get your nit picks out!

Perhaps people should mention what kind of feedback they're looking for when they post their piece?

 

Well, if I see something here I'm going to critique it no matter WHAT. And I would appreciate it if people do the same for me.

I mean, chances are what I'm reading isn't going to be very good, because as far as I can tell, most of the people here are just starting out... so the whole 'for the sake of sharing a story' is crap, because chances are I'm not going to enjoy it. It's a total cop out, and it probably means you're happy to suck as a writer... just like most of the other people in this world who suck as writers but still keep writing for no good reason.

If you're a real writer, you want to get better, and criticism can help you get better... if it's good criticism.

 

On a photography forum I'm a member over people need to mention C&C welcome somewhere otherwise people generally lay off the negative stuff.

I think if we all work on not taking criticism personally and communicating in a respectful reasonable way it'll be fine.

Though personally if I'm posting something I WANT comments and criticism otherwise... I'd leave it in my head.

 

whats a 'real writer' and do you feel you have to be one to post something you have written on here?
S

 

Obviously not, because I really don't think I've read much of anything here that seemed like the work of a real writer, though some of it definitely has potential.

I'm not trying to sound like a pompous ass either... but if this is just about kids posting their work on the wall like Kindergarten students who are proud of the fingerpainting they just made, and we're all supposed to hand them a patronizing 'wow! look what you did!', then I don't suppose there's much point for me or really anyone to be here.

A real writer is ALWAYS trying to get better, because he or she cares about being good at it, and workshops are a pretty common way to go about it. Real writing is WORK. If people here aren't prepared to accept that, then it's hard for me to take any of this seriously.

If you don't want to interact with your readers in a new or exciting or even interesting way, then you can still call yourself a writer, but it will be the same as if you called yourself a musician for knowing three guitar chords, or a magician because you know a couple of card tricks, or a filmmaker because you took a video of yourself peeing with your cell phone.

 

maybe this forum needs grade levels.

 

explain?
S

 

well, when someone is just barely becoming a writer, these are their very first attempts ever. like a small child they're gonna be pretty sensitive about it. the way you talk to these true nooBs is going to be very different from the way you talk to people who have developed more confidence and should know better. obviously heywood would be on an upper level of taking criticism, but some kid who's got some good ideas but horrible form will require a different approach.

i can't really see me posting anything here, i dont' ahve the time. but perhaps, when people post their work here their level could be voted on by the community as to what level they are, and their work criticised along those lines. this way people still get the constructive criticism they need, without the harshness that's deserved later when they should be at heywood's level.

 

or an easier way would be a subforum, beginners writing, people could post in there if they want people to be gentle with them, what ever stage they are at.
I want to get a feel for this pace before I ask for subforums, but what do you think?
S

 

it's not my baby, i was just trying to consider a way that i'd be willing to put my subpar work up here without being hammered on by the writer's clique, at least until i've relearned lost skills.

 

no but your a member of the hipforums so feel free to discuss wether my ideas work well with yours or stink!

also you could say in an introduction post you are a new writer so please be gentle!
S

 

this is true. i've shied away from writing for years because my stepfather, being an english professor, never thought that encouragement was a part of the deal. if i meet with that here, i'll be done with it entirely.

 

so that begs the question, how many writers that have soemthing to offer have shyed away from posting because they fear the feedback that this community gives?
S

 

judging by how many have emailed me their work for some help, quite a few.

 

Perhaps not all people who write are doing it because they want to be a 'real writer' (whatever that is) People write to communicate. Some do it for shits and giggles and if that's a waste of your time, then fine. Leave them be and let them have their shits and giggles you don't have to respond (but if that's your policy, ok go ahead but it's still a choice).

After all, we do still give book reviews and critiques to our world renown writers, asked for or not, on their completed works. (Editing, work shopping and such is usually done well before that stage) And ya know what? I've seen some of these 'real writers' throw some incredible hissy fits because they took a review or two to heart. So putting us all into different boxes of 'real' and 'cop out wimps' because of how our individual egos take things is an unfounded generalization.

I am of the opinion that all people of varying degrees of styles and ambitions should feel free to write and post with out having to be striving for the ultimate goal of pleasing the masses, getting published or paid or even becoming better than what they are. If you just want to write 'cause you feel moved at the moment - power to ya and there's no need to insult them because their end goal seem kindergarden to you.

Now I do understand the desire to see writers better themselves. I seek to better myself and seek to help others do the same. But I know when my help is wanted and when it isn't and it's arrogant of me to chime in when my two cents isn't welcome by saying you 'suck, change all this to be 'good'. Chances are, when you read a peice that truely sucks, you already know how the critique is going to be recieved and that they're just putting their story out there. And trust me, I do know how hard it can be to bite one's tongue when something is truely crap.

Of course, also realizing that one does not need to limit one's self to a single writers forum on this vast beast we call the interweb, I also go to a serious writers forum when I want really good feedback and to workshop a peice. So perhaps it's all a matter of what kind of atmosphere we want the Hip Writers forum to be.

Do we want it to be serious writers, developing, critizing only? Do we want it to be a place people can be free to express themselves with words without too much fear of being shot down? Or do we perhaps want a place that can accomidate both?

I'm all for the latter and I really like the suggestion that the photography forum person mentioned about labelling a thread or a item as critique welcome or just sharing for shits n' giggles.

 

I'm really against trying to hold peoples hands. Writing is about freedom of ideas and being willing to share those ideas is a HUGE part of writing. After all, if you didn't want someone to see it, why write it down in the first place. History should show that everything that gets written down will more than likely get read if you don't destroy it yourself.

If someone is too afraid to post something because they might receive negative feedback all I can say is grow up (I'm sorry to sound mean, I don't want to be). But honestly, if you can't take criticism that's too bad. Post the stuff on your fridge and read it to your friends and parents.

Obviously there is a line when the criticism stops being CONSTRUCTIVE and that's no help to anyone. But shouldn't we be able to tell when someone is just being mean and when someone is just giving some constructive comments?

It's an internet forum for crying out loud, there are what, 10,000 members who gives a shit if a few of them don't like your work. If that's enough reason for you to stop writing then you would have never produced anything of value anyway. You think all the famous writers in the world just picked up a pen and wrote literay gold? no, everyone writes shit sometimes. And thats FINE.

Besides, you should know how a piece came out. If you don't like it or aren't comfortable with it, DON'T POST IT. That's not to say if it's not the greatest thing ever don't post it. But if you don't feel it's good work then don't put it up, no amount of hand holding is going to make someone a better writer, nor will it help anybody get comfortable with taking criticism.