Israel? Zionism? Yes? No?

I'm currently in Israel and have been for the last 9 months. I'm going back home to NZ in 3 weeks. I belong to a zionist youth movement (Habonim Dror) and was sent for Shnat Hachshara (year of preperation) in Israel.

Basically, I'm wondering how much people here support Israel... how zionist are you? I'm not really that zionist. My movement is also left wing, as am I, so I've spent my year looking at and trying to alleviate some of the problems in this country. A lot of the problems that Israel has seem to be brought onto it by its own mistakes (ie lack of funding for education in Israel Proper when the schools in the shtachim (settlements) get 165% of the funding that is given other schools and thats not even looking at the difference between funding given to jewish and to arab/bedouin schools).

This country has many problems... You've gotta ask, when/if you make aaliyah, are you just going to make aaliyah stam? Or are you going to come here and make a difference? Me and my friends have an on-going debate as to which is better...

1) Make aaliyah in the sense of you moving to Israel but once you get here, you live in Tel Aviv, work an office job and don't really do anything to help the country get out of the fucked up shit its in.

OR

2) Stay in the country you live in, in the diaspora, but instead devote some of your time to spreading awareness about the "truth" about Israel (ie a different point of view rather then the crap spread about by people like Free Palestine) and also devote some of your time to helping people who are in need.

What do you think? I think the second one is better.

-Tamsyn

 

I much agree with you Taylor. I too have been in Israel for nearly a year and am going home soon.

In terms of zionism, I am a supporter for the Jewish State. Israel is the Jewish State and but it was set up as, I agree with. The concepts of socialsist zionism and the teachings of Ahad Haam (the Jewish State as a jewish cultural centre) are the ideas that I agree with. I am still in a bit of a rut as to what I think about Israel, but as it is as a democratic country, I dont nessassarily agree with the government.

 

Israel rocks dude, we just need to clean the terrorists out, then it'll be alot better, so i guess im pretty zionist

 

At this point I would say I'm pretty undecided. I don't consider myself a Zionist, but I'm not anti-Zionist either. Truth be told, I don't feel that same close connection to Israel that a lot of other Jews do. I'm an American.

 

Basically, as someone who has also been in Israel nearly a year (coincidence? not really - i live with Taylor) and as someobody who wants to make aliyah, I guess that puts me in the category of Zionist.

I think a big problem that people have is not so much with the concept of Zionism (I have encountered very few people who don't believe in the validity of a Jewish homeland, a place free from persecution for Jews), I rather think that it is the current preconceived defintions and notions of Zionism that stick in people's throats. For me Zionism is NOT building the land, nor is it annexing as much territory as possible from our neighbours. Zionism is not oppressing the Palestinian people, and Zionism is most certainly NOT blindly supporting everything the Israeli government does.

For me, Zionism is loving Israel despite all her faults. Zionism is not just being able to criticise Israel and recognising all the things here that are wrong, but having the passion and the desire and the drive to change them. Zionism is wanting to fix up all the fucked up things in this society. Zionism is wanting to make Israel a homeland, in all the senses of the word 'home' - a sanctuary, a place where all its inhabitants, Jewish or not, feel comfortable and happy, and a place where they WANT to be.

As for zionism versus democracy, call me a racist, but for me at the end of the day zionism has to win out. If I had the choice between a Jewish State, and a completely Democratic one, I would choose a Jewish one. In my opinion, history has proven all too often that society is more than willing to use Jews as scapegoats for their problems, and I believe a Jewish state NEEDS to exist.

Despite this, I still do not and will not stand by some of the things that this Jewish State has done. I am able to, and believe I have an obligation to recognise the many inequalities prevalent in society here. This includes the discrimination against Jews and non-Jews alike. But, like a parent whose child does bad things, I nonetheless will not withhold any love for this country, nor pride for all the things that she has achieved in such a short space of time, despite all the odds against her.

 

Wouldn't it be totally wierd if you knew some friends of mine from when I was 7 or 8? Yiyir (~31), Nir (~29), and Alad (~26) Ben-amar.

 

Which ones, the Palestinian terrorists or the Israeli ones? Or both?

 

I don't know how many times I have posted this up, but it is a huge number. Who do you think are the Terrorists?
By definition, I see the suicide bombers and people which shoot Qassam Rockets as the terrorists.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

 

None of the names are familiar, but there are 6.3 million people living in this country and I havent quite yet mangaed to meet ALL of them!

 

Oh, by the way Gary - I agree with your definition of terrorists - particularly when it gets to days when you are in Shuk HaCarmel the day before it is blown up, and you have to wonder why it is you cant do your shopping in peace....

The thing is though, what makes them terrorists and not freedom fighters? That, in my opinion, is the more difficult line to draw, if in fact there is a line at all.....

 

...though lord knows she's tried...

 

the present day nation of israel has every right to exist
as a modern day nation.

it has no right however, to treat the decendents of the
people who were already living there before it became one,
any differently then anyone else living within its borders.

i know i'm not there on the ground. but to me this is the
beggining and the end of it.

i believe hamas and p.l.o. should have seats in the knesset
if the people living in the districts that would elect them
choose to do so.

and of course people who commit harmful acts should be
treated just like anyone else wo committs harmful acts,
whatever their religeon, politics or anything else.

would there be an 'intifada' if the palistinians had the
same rights, privalidges and responsibilities as other
israelies? i don't know. but i do know there is no moral
justifiction for denying them.

(i also believe this is entirely a political question that
has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with belief)

=^^=
.../\...

 

Two State Solution all the way, baby.....

And there is no way, absolutely NO way, that I would ever EVER want a terrorist, racist organisation like Hamas having seats in the Knesset. Lord knows that politicians are bad enough as it is. Just like there is no way I would EVER want Kach (a Jewish terrorist racist party) getting seats in the Knesset.

As for meeting all of them, yes Tamsyn, am trying my damndest. So many people, so little time....

 

I agree with you, we share opinion.

 

Zionism is imperialistic terrorism. It is saying that that strip of land belongs to one race by divine right and all others must leave. It is blatant racism and must be opposed just like the oppression of the North American Native should have never happened. To say that the "terrorism" of the palestinians justifies the fascist practises of Israel is like saying that The Natives deserved all the massacres commited against them because a very small amount scalped white men (who were invading their land). Jews are not new to the area, but Israeli's are. Jews and Arabs have gotten along great in the past in Palestine. Israeli's and Palestinians have not. Why? because Israel was, from its very birth expansive and militaristic. We should either have 2 states for the seperate people, one new bicultural, trireligious state, or even better no states at all. Let the masses not be bound to any flag or government.

 

Zionism was the intent of the Third Reich. First with the British Empire and their ideas for the Balfour Declaration. It is nothing more than a front for an occult world government using the jewish people as bait. I won't be shocked if another holocaust esque event happens to further push these goals of this hidden power elite. However anyone who lives in Israel is a working member of the government personally knew (or was somewhat close to knowing) Netenyahu and Sharon, and you can prove that this is incorrect I would like to see it. WWII wasn't only a war to destroy Autocracy (wwI being an end of supreme dominance of national monarchies), it was also a setup for the coming WWIII a war of religion. All I can say is if we payed attention to what happened during the crusades we can basically predict whats going to happen. We setup a mass hysteria on both the arab muslim, and judeo-christian fronts. Then basically release the "godless asians from the east" and destroy all sides. This time destroying Judaism and Islam. Whereas Now the Pope is all thats left of organized religion ushering in a New dark Age. Instead of 1000 years ago ushering out a dark age into a renaissance itll be backwards.
THe godless asians, being the Communist china of today, most likely via an Iranian connection. Back then It was the Mongol Hordes (a little less godless but all the more vicious). History repeats. When its written like a book.

 

Dude....I hate Israel for its inhumane and imperialistic and racist practises....you seem to be some fearful and racist Christian conspiracy theorist who believes that the enemies of Pat Robertson are converging on a new Jewish/Communist/Atheist world order. This is wrong. There are no "Godless Hoards" of Asia that are going to storm the world. That is a racist point of view I may add. Do not call yourself an anti-zionist, because you appear to oppose zionism due to some percieved conspiracy to destroy Christianity. I oppose Zionism because Zionism kills innocent Arab children. The conspiracy is about the ruling class excercising their rule over a theoretically smarter, but practically more easily brainwashed proletariate. What you are saying however reminds me very much of a psuedo-religion called Esoteric Hitlerism....this 'religion' is full of more shit than Scientology, and that says alot!

And clearly, you are new to history, there was no conspiracy surrounding the Mongols, and that part of History will not repeat itself because there are no more warlike nomads on the steppes of Eurasia...we will have to nuke ourselves back to the stone age for this to happen again.


History doesnt repeat itself. It rhymes with the times.

 

Nah I was just comparing the unseen force from the east back then was the Mongols, nowadays the Chinese. All I meant was no one in the western world really thought about them back then, and a little less now but still to a degree. CHristianity was caught up in its own little conflict with the muslims. The same exists today, whereas western culture can be substitued with Christianity as a religion, but back then it dominated it entirely.

I didn't say conspiracy with the mongols, I meant they were outside of it. The unseen force from the east. As for the Esoteric Hitlerism, that was the "hidden" religion of the Third Reich, but they used CHristianity as a front. You didn't even address the Balfour Declaration, and the fact that it was the British who instigated this effort for a return of Jews to Israel primarily for British Imperial gain, they would run it as a province then seize it the first oppurtunity they could. The British Empire however fell before it could happen. This morphed into a war reminiscent of the French Revolution in all of Europe. Downfall of Monarchy through WWI. This cause brought the effect politically in Germany they pushed the Nazi Ideals. The ones that were creating this notion of Esoteric Hitlerism, were funding the concentration camps, and the collection of Jews. This feeds off the Jewish religion, the idea of the chosen people of the vengeful god's covenant bound to suffer untill judgement.

This is now a perfect front to fullfill the Zionist Ideal the same people were pushing different propaganda thru the jewish angle. Igniting a spark to head back to this land, now was doubled with this spark of Nazi racism. There was a general sense of remorse and mercy on the Jewish people by the allies, just like their should've been. This is the events leading up to the creation of the state of Israel. The Nazi's fall, either way "THEY BEHIND THE SCENES" won. No matter what the physical outcome of the war.

The evidence is all over especially in the symbols used for both the Nazi Empire, and The state of Israel. The Swastika, Im sure you all know is a symbol used all over the world for different meanings. The Star of David, is in fact really the Seal of Solomon. Which is an occult symbol regarding incantations dating back to the time of Solomon said to have magical diving, and invocation of Demons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_solomon
This disappeared between the time of Solomon, and then repsrouted in the middle ages, when occult and Kabbalist ideals re-surfaced in Judaism. They were shut down and the symbol was outlawed as a symbol of the Babylonian Captivity and not true to the Jewish Religion of Abraham. Then all the sudden comes back out to symbolize a united Jewish Nation. Right after the fall of another attempted Ethnocentric country, who fed off each other. It is also known that a swastika can even be SUBSTIUTED AND HAS BEEN FOUND PORTRAYED RIGHT NEXT TO A SEAL OF SOLOMON.
This is an obvious connection.

 

Dude, you believe alot of fucked up shit. None of this is logical in the slightest. Next youll tell me that the third reich escaped to the antarctic with the aid of UFO's that they found, and that they have been in contact with sub-terrainian reptillian beings, and are about to strike with thousands of reverse engineered UFO's. Dont think I am unfirmilliar with nutjob far-right conspiracy theories. They amuze me, and put a smile on my face.


This is a political discussion of zionism versus anti-zionism, this is not a discussion about dungeons and dragons.