Illegal immigrants who pay taxes

Which is in fact a lot of them.

One of the main arguments against illegal immigrants is the fact they use services but don't pay taxes into them. Well what if most of them actually paid taxes into the services but will never see a dime of social security, medicare, ect if they're not given legal status?

Oh it's an oldie, but a goodie
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

 

Whose social security number is being used to pay those taxes? How about a law requiring employers to be shown the original social security card of any person employed and that number verified by the SS administration prior to being put on the payroll? As it is I can see an easy way to make work by illegal immigrants pay off quite well by linking with an elderly legal immigrant, or several.

I'm also aware that many Asians, especially Hmong, from Laos and Viet Nam who immigrated legally, will be able to draw social security long before retirement age, as nearly all that I know were given advice to up their age as they have no birth records. I guess that will at least help to increase the life expectancy of Americans in the future. I know one person that actually claims to be 15 years older than his actual age.

The main argument against illegal immigrants is the word "illegal".

 

Hm the word illegal is a cheap shot against immigrants. Considering how valuable the cheap labor is to the American economy why is the word illegal so important to the argument. In fact, it has nothing to do with the fact they're already here or the fact our immigration system is broken. It's just a cheap ploy by people who can't come up with a better argument for why they don't like immigrants.

And the tiny number of Asian refugees, mainly from the Vietnam war era who lied about their age has nothing on the amount of normal Americans who will lie on their taxes this year. It's really just a sensationalist argument.

 

I'm sorry but I will have to call bullshit on that one, the cheap ploy by people who can't come up with a better argument part. I think them driving down wages is important enough to get them to leave the country.

And how valuable is cheap labor? Its valuable that the unemployment rates for americans is anywhere between 13 and 17 percent depending on the source? It's valuable that jobs like carpentry and laying stone have decreased 50 percent in annual income because of this cheap labor?

I'm sorry, but its neither racist nor anti immigrant to believe that an american should have a job before someone who wasn't born in this country. And unfortunately the mainstream media today likes to paint this lie. And then the only people who don't paint this picture are the ass clowns at Fox News.

 

i bet youre really pissed off over that Haiti refugee thing then..

 

Actually they don't drive down wages considering the good deal of work they do is under the table, and those that use fake papers are on payroll taxes so they are required to make at least miniumum wage. Sorry, it's a false argument. Not to mention the fact the labor they do is pretty important in the functioning of many aspects of our economy and keeps everything oh so cheap how Americans like it. Face it, Americans want cheapness, Americans complain about jobs going overseas than go by the cheapest products they can. Like I said, Americas are doing a fine job destroying the economy themselves.

And it's supply and demand, immigrants are not taking your jobs. If it wasn't for illegal immigrants working construction, it'd be convicted felons who can't get jobs anywhere else, or high school drop outs without a degree doing it for the same price. The they took our jobs argument has no basis in actual economic fact.

And yes, it is anti-American to say "Americans" should have a job first, it's the same nativist bullshit that's been spewed since the No Nothing party was outraged over the cheap Irish labor from the mass of immigrants following the potato famine in the 1850's. It is pretty un-American considering our entire country was built on the backs of immigrants who have to hear this every single generation.

 

But the OP you began is titled "Illegal immigrants who pay taxes", and it remains a fact that there are both "legal" and "illegal" immigrants who reside in the country. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking immigrants, but only with how the person(s) entered the country. When you have two persons, one who works to make a living and the other who steals to make a living, both are in pursuit of the necessities of life, but one is doing so legally while the other is doing so illegally. We have laws for a reason, and if we are going to ignore one, why not ignore them all?

There are quite many Asians, Hmong, Cambodian, and Vietnamese who now live legally in the U.S., and the item I mention is most likely not limited to use by Asians alone, but any legal immigrants who come from countries where birth records are not a necessity of life. You might also take a look at some of the European countries who are beginning to see the Islamic population beginning to be a significant percentage of their population. Problems are best solved when all the facts are taken into account, rather than waiting for them to become a "crisis", which allows you to do things that couldn't otherwise be done. Where did I hear that? Rahm Emanuel?

 

And how is it that getting paid under the table doesn't drive down wages? Isn't the point of that to avoid taxes in the first place?

 

Depends how you look at it, someone being paid say $8 an hour under the table would otherwise be making about $11 if paying taxes. But it still doesn't change the fact these are low paying jobs to begin with, if an immigrant was being paid under the table it'd just be someone else, people in general preferred being paid under the table in low paying jobs since it gives you more income normally on a day to day basis.

Remember though these people just don't go to work than disappear for the night, these people are living here(the sending money home argument doesn't apply considering what Americans send overseas in their quest for ever cheaper goods is numerous times larger). They're spending the money they make here, they need places to live, they need places to buy food and clothes, they need infrastructure services like everyone else, people take jobs but they also create jobs in their demand for consumption.

 

So all of our unemployed people are either felons or high school dropouts? Its either that or illegal immigrants? And we're also going to ignore that most illegal aliens live in large groups in low income neighborhoods? I live in one, and I see it all the time. With five men making six dollars an hour working for 12 hours a day, thats a lot of money. Its not like every illegal family is surviving off of 50 dollars a day, and scraping by.

And the problem lies with the fat cats who want to keep their pockets fat by hiring illegals for cheaper labor, because they will do just as good of a job for far more cheaper. Which does make sense for them, sure. And if we can ignore that they are illegal, which doesn't seem to be a problem, why can't we ignore all types of other laws? And just because the country was founded on immigrants doesn't mean we should let a whole bunch of new ones to come in and ruin it for the rest of the people.

My great grandfather came here from Belgium, I'm not saying fuck immigrants. Why can't we make these people citizens, make them pay the same taxes, which would drive there income up as well. Right now there kids are going to public school for free, they go to hospitals and get treated, it's easier for them to get drivers licenses than it is for me, and the cartel violence is starting to spill over into u.s. soil.

They can live here comfortably but I have to worry about getting my door kicked in for having a gram of weed.

(Sorry for getting off topic)

 

Wow, I'm beginning to believe it might be beneficial if we were to legalize bank robbery, after all that would put much more money into circulation, and why not allow individuals as well as government to start redistributing the wealth? Perhaps it should be okay to rob someone if you only take half the money they are carrying? Just to maintain equality?

By not enforcing the immigration laws we've allowed a problem to grow to large dimensions, and we continue to ignore the problem source and just try to find a way to eliminate it from being recognized as a problem and instead focusing on how to gain some political advantage from how it is addressed.

 

people are people so why should it be that imaginary lines on the earth separate you from me.?? .

 

They don't.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkDIGJmOhoQ&feature=related"]YouTube- Metro North Mall aka Creepy Dead Mall

This kinda stuff is happening all over, Dead Malls.. Immigration could bring life to otherwise dead towns..

 

I would love to make these people legal so they can live in the system, that's why I say "illegal immigrant" is a cheap shot though, people who throw out that word generally have no interest in making these people legal, they just want them gone.

But remember, it's not fat cats, it's you and me, metaphorically and literally. Illegal immigrants aren't generally taking middle class jobs, but they are in fact keeping America's middle class lifestyle the way they want it, without them the middle class in America is all of a sudden a lot poorer. It's them working in the fields, on farms, in restaurants, as roofers, ect that keep costs low. There's a documentary called a Day without a Mexican that goes into this. How pissed would Americans be if they went to the supermarket tomorrow and fruit and poultry all of a sudden cost 20% more because the immigrants working the fields and working in the tyson plan were gone. Or construction, a lot of people own houses because they were built by immigrants, they chose the company with less experience using unskilled labor vs experienced and well paid carpenters ect so they could afford the American dream of owning a house too. You could argue it's a good thing to a pay more if it helps American jobs, but Americans over the past 30 years have shown time and time again that they don't care about that.

But yes as I was saying it's not fat cats, sure wal-mart may hire a bunch, but generally big companies are under much more scrutiny and their stock holders don't feeling like facing the wrath of the government. When it comes to illegal immigrants, it is in fact mom and pop who are supplying them with their jobs.

Also though I would argue $6 an hour, 12 hours a day is not a lot of money, in fact generally you could make more on unemployment, which goes to the next issue of jobs for Americans. The thing is remember 2 years ago the unemployment rate was only 4%, and remember full employment by the good deal of mainstream economist is generally considered an unemployment rate of 3% since actual total full employment would lead to higher inflation. So what do we do, kick out immigrants every time there's a recession? The illegal ones are generally taking min. wage jobs, they're not really taking jobs from anyone. An actual American if they lose their job could in most circumstances collected more from unemployment, at this point the benefits go on for near 2 years. And it's better this way, the entire point of unemployment benefits aside from making sure people don't have to blow through their savings is keeping people from having to take the first dead end job that comes a long, since looking for a job becomes much harder when you a job.

You do realize this argument has been going on since 1840 and it's yet to materialize though right? You can't go "welp, my wave of 20 million immigrants from my ancestors country were ok because they didn't concern the people already living here at the time" We weren't founded on immigrants, we've constantly been a society of immigrants. These immigrants are actually stopping the destruction of our country, our finances for the baby boom generation when they start retiring, while dire, are in much better shape than Europe's, specifically for the fact of immigrants as our natural birth rate really isn't any higher than most European nations.

 

How would that help? as the quote says, they're easy to get, fake ID's are a dime a dozen, and a passible social security card could be EASILY home made, compared to a drivers liscense or something, which takes some care, wether you pay for someone elses care or do it the 1 hair brush way.

As for whose numbers it is, no ones... whatever numbers you feel like typing on the "SSN" or "DLN" line.... Of course they're going to hit on a real one by accadent every now and then, but it's not like it will hurt the real number holder, who's somewhere else/someone else. They just need the number so their boss sees they put something on the form, to get their paycheck and jet.

 

You still fail to mention how all of our unemployed are felons and high school drop outs. Also you say its people like you and I who want cheap labor, which is right up the alley of cheap ploys you say other people use when calling illegal immigrants illegal, when that is what they are.

I don't want cheap labor, because I realize it doesn't help shit. Thats like saying americans think they are too good to pick fruit, work in tyson factories or restaurants, it's bullshit. It's an opinion. It can't be cited. And I don't know how many people you know who work construction or have lost jobs because of illegals, it doesn't seem like many. It's not just one or two cases of someone losing there job, it's tons of small cases which makes this.

And who's paying for unemployment? Oh thats right, illegal immigrants, because they pay taxes now too.

Also why do people think that because America was founded by immigrants, more immigrants should just come through willy nilly? Does nobody think we should take care of our own people first? Or has everybody just been raised on white guilt, and think it's blasphemous to say anything that might not be defending someone who's skin is another color? A country can't change? It needs to constantly be a country of immigrants?

I know the immigrants are hardworking people, and 99% of them just want to live here and have the freedoms that any living person should have. They have a great sense of community, and do just as good a job as anybody else. I don't want anyone to think I don't know that. I just want them to be citizens if they're going to live here.

 

I don't disagree with everything you say, but illegal immigration does hurt regular Americans.

You mention construction. In N. Georgia, the owner of a very successful construction company refused to hire illegal immigrants; his competitors did not. He did better work with skilled labor, but his competitors were cheaper. He went out of business, lost his home and filed bankruptcy, along with all of his long-time employees.

There is a fairly large area of N. Georgia that specializes in carpet manufacturing, around Dalton. Workers made a good wage, bought homes and built decent lives. Then came the illegals. The factories hired them at a much cheaper wage and eventually the local workers had to accept the lower wage or not work. As a result many lost their homes, cars and were suddenly thrust into a life of poverty. The Hispanic gangs soon followed the illegal immigrants.

No matter which side of the immigration issue you fall on, you cannot deny the fact that American citizens suffer as a result of illegal immigration. Don't get me wrong, I don't put the blame on people trying to have a better life for themselves and their families, the blame lies with the companies that hire them at a cheap wage.

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Interesting article, thanks for posting.

 

A;though I doubt that most illegals who are working are having taxes withheld, those that might be and are using a fictitious Social Security number could and should be identifiable if an effort was made. Of course they could also find an unemployed or elderly legal immigrant who they can trust, and use their identity where they seek employment and any taxes paid would be credited to the legal immigrant who could gain benefit, social security, medicare, unemployment, etc.

Do most people feel immigration laws are unnecessary? Over 1 million immigrants enter the country legally. Is that too few? Emotionally thinking, one tends to put aside rational thinking. Try putting everything in perspective, there are some positive aspects, but by ignoring the negative aspects they do not go away.