How To Stop The Alt-Right

And I could just as easliy say the same thing about the new-age left reading Buzzfeed, Salon, Huffingpaint Post, and the televised alphabet soup channels. Promoting their services to billionares like George Soros and Ted Turner. As they fan the flames of more race wars.

 

Absolutely. Muslim's shouldn't get a free pass to discriminate against anybody. Why would you think they should? And in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with bigot busting.

 

You ought to move to Oklahoma, One eyed. We have the highest female incarceration rate in the country--over two-thirds for non-violent offenses ! http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2044089,00.html

Straight white males have always engaged in identity politics, but I agree there should be more acknowledgement of the problems of lower SES white males, which tend not to be specific to them. And journalists need to be more sensitive to the fact that whites aren't collectively responsible as a race for anything. What would the straight white male identity politics you're defending look like? How do you promote white identity without disparaging non-whites? How do you promote straight identity without disparaging gays? How do you promote male identity without denigrating women? I can answer the last of these. I used to be active in the men's movement--the "Iron John" followers of Robert Bly searching for our inner wild man. I used to get a lot of flack, not only from traditional men but also from feminists who felt threatened--even though I'd explain it had nothing to do with being anti-women. Sometimes we'd have drumming circles with the wild women, and have ourselves a wild time. People are just going to misunderstand, so you need to do your own thing and ignore them. Being straight is fine. I'm straight myself. A majority of guys are, and if most of us weren't at least part of the time the species would die out. So what would straight identity politics that doesn't bash gays look like? A bunch of guys saying "Straight is okay?" Are people that insecure? Where do you see all this straight bashing?

I think the offense of hate crime is badly needed, because crimes targeting people because of their ascriptive characteristics are a serious problem. Not "all crimes that revolve around one person physically harming another is a hate crime regardless of race." "Hate crime" is a technical legal term designating a crime motivated by hatred because of a person's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation. It poses a threat to civil order over and above the actual assault. As for the Chicago situation involving the torture of a mentally challenged white man, seems to me the evidence speaks for itself. They were fool enough to videotape themselves torturing a bound man and calling him racist names and "Trump"! Even if the victim were Trump himself, it would represent a level of depravity that no society can afford to tolerate. Since I believe in the judicial process, I'll look at what the defense has to say, but the accused are lucky I'm not in the jury pool.

But if black people are disproprotionately committing more crimes, they're following a pattern that's characteristic of disadvantaged minorities in all societies. If other economic opportunites are restricted, people tend to turn to crime--especially street crime, which is the kind recorded in the FBI crime index. They also tend to use illegal substances as an escape, and so make up a goodly share of victimless criminals, who make up the lions share of people behind bars.

 

And that's a big part of the problem: narrowcasting. People today can choose their own reality. I know lots of folks who have a steady diet of FOX spewing anger 24-7, and there are poor souls who take the National Enquirer seriously about Hillary's hit men. The antidote, if there is one, is to read widely, think deeply, be skeptical of everything you read and watch, check sources, use good judgment, and don't send out for Russian pizza. BTW, I don't often read the first three sources you mention (not being one of the "New Age Left"), but that "alphabet soup" includes some excellent professional journalists--more than can be said of Breitbart which is pure propaganda somewhere between FOX and the Enquirer in credibility.

 

Gun sales way down

 

I ask because it has been reported that some muslim run restaurants have been known to refuse services to gays. And the press never seems to attack them for some reason. I think that there are certain situations when someone ought to be allowed to refuse service to another person. I may be white, but I'd feel too disgusted to provide business to an establishment that refused to serve minorities, and thankfully we've changed the culture to where most people feel the same as I.

Never been to Oklahoma, but for a short while I had a roommate from Tulsa. He seemed to say good things about it.

I'm against for profit prisons and mandatory minimums. Having a high rate of incarcerations and overcrowded prisons is a problem. I just think the "sentencing gap" could be fixed. And believe it or not, men do have issues that are often ignored by society. This is one of them.

unk:

Now what makes you think we can't raise issues for one group (straight white males), without taking away from another (everyone else)? This isn't the Oppression Olympics.

Ever heard of the phrase "toxic masculinity" being pushed by journalists lately? This was invented by modern feminism, which has nothing to do with equality, and everything to do with hating men. This is the problem with offering identity politics to only certain select groups. It's people like this, and lefties who stand up for their causes, who practically make a VERY GOOD reason for identity politics for cis white men.

University of Wisconsin is offering a course on how to redefine what it means to be a man, and it ain't pretty http://moonbattery.com/?p=79740

But how would you know if the act of interracial violence IS motivated by racism without damning irrefutable evidence? Could it be that the crime was an NOT racially charged? Perhaps it could've been an act of revenge. Or maybe the race of the victim had nothing to do with the crime at all despite the differences in race. Not every case is the same. And to add additional charges where they don't belong, only increases the inmate population.

I think with this kidnap and torture of the disabled white guy was clearly an act of hatred and racism. The evidence is compelling by the "fuck white people!" they said over and over. The fact that this is being discussed by law enforcement, journalists, pundits etc. as to whether or not this is an act of racism or not, or if it was just "kids being dumb" is the whole problem.

I never said there weren't problems in the black community that don't need addressing. There most certainly are. They keep voting for the same democrats over and over again to run their cities and communities, and their problems never go away for some reason. Bill Clinton's '94 crime bill increased the level of incarcerations of black people; it tore several families apart, and was the one of the worst things to happen to the black community since the British slave trade. Lower incarcerations for victimless crimes, and allow black communities easier access to better education through building better schools in their districts would be a good start.

 

Reported by whom? Maybe the press didn't attack them because it was one of those Pizzagate type happenings--i.e., fake news. We've changed the culture, by law and social pressure.

 

I don't think raising issues for one group without taking away from another is impossible. I'd just like to know what it looks like. I gave an example of guys looking for a deeper understanding of masculinity. Been there, done that. Nothing wrong with male bonding, in my opinion, as long as we don't get there by denigrating women. What would white identity look like to distinguish it from the white citizens councils of the 1950s South. Would it somehow be focusing on special contributions made by whites, while recognizing contributions by non-whites? Who would be into this? And what does heterosexual politics look like?

As for "toxic masculinity", masculinity can be toxic. So can feminist man-bashing. That University of Wisconsin course seems to challenge prevailing social constructs of masculinity and what it is to be a guy. I have no problem with that, as long as the course isn't required. I'm in a group that's been doing that voluntarily for years. I went to a New Years party on New Year's day where the basic ground rule was no football. Lots of guys there. But if guys want to drink beer and watch football, that's okay too. Just not at that event, and don't expect us to do the same. My friends and I get together every week. People who are curious ask what we do. Just talk, I say. Just talk ?! What kinda guys get together to talk? Real men eat quiche or whatever the hell else they want!

 

It's handled the way other questions like that are handled in the criminal justice system. The burden of proof is on the prosecution to show beyond a reasonable doubt that the crime was racially motivated, and the decision is made by the jury or trier of fact on the basis of the evidence presented. If somebody is yelling "take that you dirty Muslim, fag, bitch, black man. etc." while committing the offense, or has a pattern of expressing animosity toward certain groups and is shown to have committed an assault on a member of that group that's consistent with that hatred, those would be things for the jury to evaluate. Differences in race, religion, gender, etc.,between the perpetrator and the victim per se aren't enough. I think you're right that the Chicago torture incident presents a pretty solid case for a hate crime. These "kids" were certainly being dumb, but they were 18 and stupidity is no defense.

 

I think your proposed remedies sound like a good start too. Clinton was an opportunist. If Republicans can offer better programs, I'd be all for it. But by and large, they can't or won't, and if they promise to do so, they're insincere. I'd be happy to have them prove me wrong.

 

Let me elaborate. Masculinity can be toxic if it involves behaviors that are destructive to self or others. For example, in opening up my computer today, this popped up. https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/why-men-more-body-image-200359549.html Men are becoming more insecure about not being muscular enough because the Hollywood image of males is focusing more and more on muscularity. And that can be bad, psychologically and physically. Insecurity about not conforming adequately to masculine stereotypes can lead to stupid behavior, like voting for Trump. Trump conforms to a certain image of what the macho male should be like: "tough'" (in the playground bully sense of the word), aggressive, brash, impulsive, loud, foul mouthed,uncouth, pussy grabbing, belittling to women, rich, and nasty. Marginal males, insecure about their masculinity, are attracted to such figures as vicarious compensation for their perceived testosterone deficiencies. Milo, a triply marginal leader of the doubly marginal Alt Right, is a case in point. Product of a broken home, he calls Trump "Daddy". Gay and part-Jewish, he saddles up to a movement full of homophobic anti-Semites like Richard Spencer, Gregg Johnson, Matthew Heimbach, and Andrew Anglin who denounced Milo's "sneaky Jewish tricks”. This seems to be the Stockholm Syndrome carried to the political arena. Consider these Breitbart headlines courtesy of Milo.: “Dear Straight People: I’m Officially Giving You Permission To Say Gay, Faggot And Queer”,“Gay Rights Have Made Us Dumber, It’s Time To Get Back In The Closet”,“How Donald Trump Made It Cool To Be Gay Again”,"Suck it up buttercups: Dangerous Faggot Tour returns to colleges in September".

Hitler's Nazis had similar followers in the early days before the Führer threw them under the bus. Ernst Röhm, the openly gay commander of the SA brownshirts, suffered from a domineering father. William Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1964) describes Röhm as "a tough, ruthless, driving man - albeit, like so many of the early Nazis, a homosexual." (p. 57). The Nazi party was born in the Bratwurstglockl, a gay bar in Munich. Times and political fortunes changed. In 1934, Röhmand may of his SA cohorts were killed in extrajudicial executions conducted by the SS and the Gestapo in the so-called Night of the Long Knives. Between 1933 and 1945, the Nazis arrested some 100,000 men as homosexuals, most of whom wound up in prisons and concentration camps; some got out by paying the price of their balls--literally, by castration. Be careful who you vote for!

Testosterone is handy when you need it. It helps males to be natural protectors and guardians. The guys I hang with celebrate honor, courage and duty as virtues, regardless of what some feminists might say. Positive masculinity is secure enough that it doesn't need to be "proven". Trying to push people around or take insane risks to prove machismo is pathological.

 

Was this a hate crime?https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/78262701-0b34-380b-8c61-3355c08c9253/ss_man-who-beat-gay-student.html

 

I bet I can answer my own question: reported by whom? First I note the interesting wording of the statement--use of the passive voice. "some Muslim run restaurants have been known..." I couldn't find a single reported incident of a Muslim restaurant refusing to serve gays, although there's a Christian-run establishment right here in Enid,OK, that makes no bones about refusing service to gays--also Muslims, disabled people, blacks and Democrats--or wouldn't in 2014. Since discrimination against blacks, Muslims and the disabled (but not gays) is illegal, he may be out of business now or have pullrd in his horns. http://myfox8.com/2014/02/07/oklahoma-restaurant-owners-says-he-wont-serve-gay-or-black-customers/ The proprietor, Gary James, says he can spot 'em a mile away! I eat regularly at a restaurant owned by a redneck Muslim named Mohammad, who is a superpatriot right wing Republican gun freak, but also an astute businessman who wouldn't want to make trouble or break the law.. His clientele looks like a Duck Dynasty family reunion. I guess I could bend my wrist and lisp a little and see if he'd throw me out, at the risk of having the customers beat the shit out of me, but since I'm a regular paying customer, I kinda doubt he'd do anything except laugh his ass off, and then I wouldn't be able to tell whether it was Islam or the superpatriot gun freak Republican that was talkin'.

A similar issue was raised with regard to bakeries and wedding cakes as a hypothetical on a far right Evangelical Christian-oriented website godfatherpolitics.com trying to defend the so-called "religious freedom laws'--freedom to discriminate against gays on religious grounds. What would happen if a gay tried to get a Muslim baker to sell him a wedding cake in Dearborn, Mass?. It was put to the test by ex-comedian turned social conservative political pundit, Steve Crowder (Louder with Crowder), star of FOX and the Glenn Beck show, who developed some notoriety when he provided edited video making it look like he'd been assaulted by a union member when the full video showed the guy who supposedly assaulted him was acting in self-defense. Crowder provided further heavily edited footage of himself on hidden camera posing as a mincing flamer trying to order a wedding cake emblazned with words like "Same Sex 4 Ever" in Muslim bakeries in Dearborn,MI. He admitted none of them flatly refused his requests, although some declined because they didn't do wedding cakes. One woman asked who the cake was for, and he recoiled in feigned righteous indignation at this simple question. And for this, Rush Limbaugh asks "Where's The Outrage? Muslim Bakeries in Michigan Refuse to Bake Cakes for Gay Weddings?" Doesn't the radical right have enough real issues to debate without manufacturing new ones?

 

ERRATUM: That's of course Dearborm, Michigan, not Mass. I know that because my wife was born and raised there, I got married there, and now it's a Muslim enclave.

 

Eye

LOL sorry but heckling doesn’t disguise the fact that you seem to be evading or refusing to answer questions or address the criticisms of your view.

But the statistics suggest that the US at this time isn’t that ‘opportunity-rich’

It seems to me that you are wishing to blame the ‘poor’ for not being successful while positioning no blame on a system that is stacked against not only the lower but also the middle classes, because of the neoliberal policies that have been pursued over the last 30 years or so, and often voted for by the same lower and middle class voters.

LOL –I asked because it was another evasion - I was asking about white males as you were talking about white men, I’ve already pointed out that many ‘identity’ groups are already open to white people (and white men) I’m asking you to be specific about white men, you evade that by reply just about men of all hues.

SO AGAIN - I’m still wondering what ‘special perks’ do you think straight white males are missing out of and therefore deserve to receive – again - as a specific group what do you think they specifically need help with?

It depends on the type of crime – as already pointed out social and economic status has a great impact on a person’s life and in this case what crimes you are likely to commit.

People living in disadvantage are under more pressures than those more comfortably off and therefore are more likely to turn to crime. So it makes sense for society to try and alivate the pressures that turn people to crime.

Also in the US because of socio-economic factors black people are more likely to be involved in ‘blue collar’ or ‘street crime’ while white people are more likely to be involved in ‘white collar’ crime such as fraud.

 

The case becomes particularly difficult when it comes to "straights". There are circumstances in an affirmative action context where it can be disadvantageous to be a white male, but I can't think of any in which being straight is a disadvantage, unless possibly in certain occupations like hairdressing or interior decorating. Sometimes it's been argued that gays are beneficiaries of "special rights" when they're specifically included in anti-discrimination laws and hate crime laws. These laws address the reality that gays have been and still are targets for discrimination and violence in many parts of the country, such as mine or Mike Pence's Indiana. To give gays the same protection straights enjoy, the law has to make it explicit that it isn't open season on them.

I think One Eyed may be reacting to the perception, often grounded in fact, that progressives who abound on some college campuses and in the mainstream media are more sensitive to vulnerability and abuse suffered by gays, blacks and women than they are of the plight of working class white males. Some liberals tend to be solicitous of the well-being of minorities and women, while sometimes unfairly disparaging straight white males as perpetrators and ignoring the fact that lower SES white males are sometimes pushed around or neglected. "Gender justice" activist professors pushing agendas of reverse discrimination have attracted attention from the professional anger factories at FOX and Breitbart. "Whiteness Studies"programs, offered in places such as the University of Wisconsin and the University of Utah now explore what whiteness has meant in different periods of American history. Some law schools have addressed this by including lower SES whites in admissions programs based on diversity, but so far this hasn't caught on in the general society. This provides an opportunity for the propagandists of the right to create a wedge issue by gathering up and amplifying such incidents.

For arguments on both sides of this issue see http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-white-males-unfairly-discriminated-against http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/21/white.persecution/index.html For a British tabloid view that the white working class suffers because of class instead of race, see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1126505/White-working-class-victims-discrimination-race-says-report.html This is easier to see in the U.K., where class divisions are more conspicuous, but I think it's also true in the U.S., where class is more subtle. The plight of the white working class has been receiving more attention in the media, and I suspect will be getting more from politicians since the Trump victory. But I think you're right that these are economic problems, not problems of discrimination per se--a product of the deindustrialization of the U.S. since the 1990s and the disappearance of high paying jobs for people of limited education. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/01/white-working-class-poverty/424341/

 

Okiefreak

To me the idea that America is a ‘classless’ society only took hold after the US had been purged of left wing ideas from around the 1940’s onward. Class was very much at the forefront of politics up to the Red Scares of 1917-20 and 1947-57.

In 1912 the US Socialist Party had over a thousand elected officials in local government and its leader Eugene Debs got a million votes in that years presidential race (6 per cent of the vote, the envy of many socialist around the world at the time). It was able to get over thirty Mayors into power as many legislators and had large numbers of loyal votes in many urban areas. It was a growing force.

Then the repression came, leaders were imprisoned, meetings broken up, people lost their jobs, witch hunts, loyalty oaths etc etc all to the background tune of anti-left government and corporate propaganda, that sang the virtues of free markets, the American dream and the classless society.

This has meant that since the 1950’s there has been little or no political force pulling from the actual left but a lot of pull coming from the neoliberal right for the last 30 years.

The result of that is that many Americans see anything left leaning as akin to ‘Stalinist communism’ and see right of centre liberals as left wingers.

Add to that the culture wars the right has been waging on politics that has resulted in people voting against their own financial interests but for the interests of wealth while setting up divisions been the working class and the disadvantaged and you can see why the US has come to its present predicament.

The question is what can be done how do you change the mind of people that have been taught there whole lives to hate the left and love the right and get them to join up with what they have been told are the scrounging poor and over privileged black people to bring about change?

 

In theory, it would look like society working together to address the problems faced by all walks of life, without turning it into the Oppression Olympics. Fem-bots won't be protesting and shutting down seminars on male suicide, for example (happened in Toronto a few years ago). Addressing issues for certain groups of people won't be deemed sexist or racist. This is the problem with having identity politics and defending only selective groups of people under the shield of political correctness. Refer back to the OP.

If you wanna go there, I can just as easily say femininity can be toxic too. Women can be viscous, conniving, vindictive, gossipers, backstabbers, and rumor starters. All the traits of a modern 3rd wave feminist. But of course, talking about toxic femininity would be sexist. And we shouldn't do that because we gotta protect the feelings of a few special snowflakes.

What's wrong with watching football, and how is that toxic masculinity? I don't watch the NFL anymore because you can't watch a major game anymore without politics being interjected into the show and ruining it. Sports, and that kind of entertainment is supposed to be a retreat from all that's fucked up in the political world.

Well if people are insecure about their bodily image because they are overweight, aren't healthy, and lack physical strength. Maybe a little body shaming can go a long way to leading someone to better themselves physically. Telling people they are beautiful at any size is sadistic and untrue. Most women like manly men too, not these pathetic cucked-out male feminists.

This is why I like Milo. He doesn't let attack words tear him down and he reminds us that we shouldn't let offensive words bother us either. I'd let him sodomize my priviliged straight white male ass any day of the week, LOL!

 

Well I couldn't find any evidence within the article that stated those Jews attacked the guy because he was gay and black. But rather because they thought he was a vandal causing ruckus.

While this is horrible and they should be jailed for what they did to him, I don't think this would exactly fit in to what society would define as a hate crime. To me, this is a hate crime because this was an unprovoked attack and he didn't damage any of their cars. I already stated that all violent crimes are fueled by hate of some kind.

 

The fact that you and people like you don't think identity politics should be for straight white people are justification enough that it should be made available to everyone or no one. You've been dodging me for 13 pages now because you know I have you cornered.

We can keep on doing what you like, by continuing on down this current path of vilifying white males. At best, regressive progressives will continue to lose elections by promoting this unpopular notion. At worst, we might see a REAL white nationalist uprising and this race war will spin even further out of control.

While the economy may be down right now, there is still plenty of opportunity abound. Try comparing the opportunity of people in this country and your own to that of countries where your chance of survival is almost entirely reduced to being a subsistence farmer, a hunter and gatherer, an oppressed proletariat of a communist regime, or someone in an undeveloped area of the world who has to burn animal feces too cook food or keep their shack warm.

I believe everybody is born with a talent they could put to profitable use.

It also depends on how you define poverty as well. I think one can fall into financial ruin, but if they had the skills and abilities they can work their way out of it too.

One auto body fabricator I used to apprentice for by restoring classic cars is an example of a guy who fell into deep poverty within the time I knew and worked with him. He was in a bad relationship with a crazy woman who was financially struggling with 2 kids she couldn't afford. So he lent her $30grand to help her through these hard times and hopefully invest it well for her family's well being. But she turned around and spent it all on a car and brand new furniture. He was left with lots of debt, a struggling business, and through his rage and frustration he became an alcoholic and couldn't afford to pay mortgage on his home. It got to the point where he was dirt broke. But I helped him out by photographing his work he did with me and all the cars we ever worked on together, and organized a portfolio so he could get back to work for an auto body shop who would hire him back in a new city (because he could no longer run his own operation, and had to run away from that woman).

Yes, poverty can happen to anyone. Even you or me. But to say it's next to impossible to leave it is totally ludicrous, especially if you have skills and talents at your disposal.

"Males" encompasses men of all color and creed.

UCAS reports poor white boys are the most disadvantaged group in entry to higher education: https://www.ucas.com/corporate/news-and-key-documents/news/ucas-data-reveals-numbers-men-and-women-placed-over-150-higher

BBC says poor white boys have a worse start in life http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/34667100/poor-white-boys-get-a-worse-start-in-life-says-equality-report\

Huffingpaint Post: White working class boys least likely to attend university http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/01/06/poor-boys-attend-university_n_8921854.html

Universities deliberately widen the race and gender gap in university enrollment: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/universities-urged-to-target-white-men-as-gender-admissions-gap-increases-a6776221.html

Wow, even the Gaurdian acknowledges this problem you refuse to admit exists: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/04/the-problem-for-poor-white-kids-is-that-a-part-of-their-culture-has-been-destroyed