Like Foxes' Den, I'm also slowly coming upon a schematized theory on meeting women. But unlike Foxes' Den, I'm more interested in understanding how to meet them, as opposed to satisfying them, although the two do overlap. I figure if a woman is interested in me, I'm already satisfying her in one way or another. So theorizing a consummate fact becomes an oxymoron. Just let your hair down and enjoy her company, is how I satisfy women. And if a shortcoming of mine pops up, it is for her to voice it - I'll listen. I'm also contemptuous of the idea that men should court women without reciprocation. I'm a human being, not a waiter... So here goes... This is what I think are some key points to consider when meeting a woman. Concisely-speaking: Edit: This grocery list will only interest those looking to create relationships with women, though not necessarily of the possessive kind. If you're just looking for a cheap fuck, then I guess you'll have to play the con game if it rocks your boat... Bon chance. 1) Love your life and yourself first - l'amour-propre. Do not allow your happiness and cheer to be co-dependent with meeting or having sex with a woman. Having your own fun is most attractive; 2) Women (as is the case in all human connections, as Karl Marx already knew) are best met by sharing in productive endevors - suggest an activity. You must actively do something with them, I don't care if it's taking a walk whatever...Socializing and dating is really a poor way of making human connections, though they may, in rare instances, lead to the kind of productive interaction I speak of; 3) Be interactive. A stare puts women into the position of the passive object (in the Sartrean sense, not the Platonic sense)... Eye contact is much better; 4) When introducing yourself, and express interest (both physical and personal), but be DEAD SERIOUS; 5) Allow women to take an interest in YOU, only then do you pounce, and I mean you do have to pounce! If you're all on top of them before they've even gave you a look, your chances are slim. As a rule I wait for the cue or at least the intuition that this is the kind of woman who would dig a guy like me; 6) Do not pretend not to be physically desirious of them. Do however, acknowledge their whole personality; 7) Allow the body to speak. Lulls in conversation are usually a sign that the most important is not being spoken. If it's obvious the interest is mutual, holding hands for instance may be a greater communicative tool than words... See, a bunch of guys get into trouble trying to be entirely too PC; 8) Remain consistent. Don't you express interest and then pretend not to be interested 2 minutes later. What a turn off... 9) Be selective. Realize for yourself the kinds of personalities to avoid and don't waste your time on them - let them seek kindred souls... In my case the personality types to avoid are: a) cock-teasing flakes; b) gold and status diggers; c)prudes; d)judgemental ego-maniacs; e) passive sit-arounds; 10) Don't feel obligated to speak to a woman because she is cute or eye-balling you. Yes, we're men but we also have moods and stuff. Not every situation or time is best to meet a woman. Wait until exuberance sets in... 11) It is best to avoid the phone. If you do have to exchange numbers, however, ask whether she'll pick up and let her know it's ok to say "No." 12) Do not make yourself into a magazine cover. People have flaws and women have to accept that along with everyone else; P.S. In case you were wondering, Foxes' Den... this is a challenge. Women posters, I'd appreciate it if you fill in the gaps in my theory/praxis. Cheers.
I disagree with teh phone thing, for one... the rest makes sense, but the phone thing (#11). Asking if she'll answer puts her into an awkward position.... if she isn't digging you a ton, either she lies to save your feelings or she tells the truth and potentially hurts you. And the phone call thing is muchly appreciated, it shows a specific interest, taht you liked her enough to pick up a phone and dial some numbers to reach her, didn't just randomly start grinding with her at the bar or somesuch.
Well, ihmurria. My thing is, "bad news is better than no news." The LAST thing I want is to get my hopes up and ending up having a monologue with the voice mail. I've recently been hurt this way, and I can assure you I'd be much less hurt had she told me she wasn't all that interested that she would pick up... I was actually given this advice by my good female friend, and I'm going to start using it. I don't see how I can lose: see, the only way a woman would be put in an awkward situation by this is if she isn't that interested in the first place. In that case I DON'T MIND putting her in an awkward position.
I love all these old-school terms! "Gallantry," "Amour-propre." In no time at all, the two of you will have me wearing a monocle and sporting a Renommierschmiss. But basically, you're right. (As I learned the hard way.) This is true; unfortunately, so is the converse. Try as I might, I can't help getting crushes on my "work-spouses." More to the point, staring at a woman tends to scare the living shit out of her, and with good reason. Having worked many years in sales, I can vouch for this. You never try to close a deal until you're sure the client has digested your pitch. Forget this, and you're sure to look like a pushy asshole. In other words, women do want to be regarded as a piece of meat -- but not only as a piece of meat. If you're planning to play touchy-feely, it's important not to drink more than the optimal amount of alcohol. A couple-three drinks may loosen you up enough to nudge and brush and grind when the time seems right; six or seven may have you grabbing whole handfuls of her ass. You're telling the wrong gender, pal.
In spite of my efforts, you must read significantly more 19th century literature than I, Booga. Hence your intellectual sophistication. I was hoping to get your feedback: I'll suck it up and look Renommierschmiss. In our Platonic-Paulinian tradition, we continuously make the mistake of fighting our corporeality and biology. Yes, we are all essentially pieces of meat who think. Not metaphysical spooks floating in ether. Uh, I disagree with any and all rigid rules. Any and all... especially when they involve quotas... They are here to impoverish the lives of those intelligent enough to guide themselves through experience, thought, and intuitive feeling. Primarily, I'd say the crux of human interaction, including woman-man interaction, is mutuality. If my date has had six drinks, so will I. And if she grabs me, I'll respond in kind. I don't think it out of line to remind oneself every now and again (especially those of us raised to be "gentlemen") that this is a human being you eventually wish to insert your penis into... There is such a thing as being too careful and mindful of bourgeois decorum. Women complain about men who jump from one flirtatious sojourn to another right in front of their eyes. What they don't know is that they have a part in manufacturing that behavior by not approaching men themselves; and rejecting a priori; and clasping to the notion of finding Mr. Right - which puts them in the ridiculous position of chasing an abstraction (as opposed to men of flesh and bones) for lifetimes on end. However essentially, I do agree. Cock-teasing flakiness is a woman gender specialty. And it is among the most abhorrent of human behaviors. But, hey, so long as it lends them special favors, gifts, free drinks and restauranteering, open doors, beasts of burden in men, and free shotgun rides - they'll keep doing it. And that is one sharp, clashing, schreeching disagreement I have with Foxes' Den. I say men STOP treating women like they can't take care of themselves, and like they aren't just as interested in sex as men are. Although women cling mightly to this anachronism of macho ideology, because it is convenient and it affords them an ego-trip to boot, every picked up tab and free drink they get is actually deleterious to their status in society.
From what I can tell, Foxes' Den selected his get-lucky tips with a very basic, broad goal in mind: to help his readers make the best possible impression on the widest possible sampling of womankind. He does a very good job. No man ever alienated a prospective lover by opening doors or postponing anal sex until the third date or later. Presumably, he expects his readers to be able to tell whether or not the girl in question is worth all the trouble. Your programme looks to be a tuned a little finer. You want to help your readers find and impress not just any woman, or even women in general, but the very woman who, in the long run, will make them punch the fewest holes in their walls. You pull it off very well. Practically every one of your rules will help your readers to satisfy rule #9, which, in terms of lasting happiness, is the most important of all: In the meantime, I've thought of a few more types worth avoiding: 1) Wounded birds 2) Daddy-seekers 3) Frenzied overachievers (imagine a cross between Lisa Simpson and the Annette Benning character in American Beauty) 4) Women who say: "Only one man will ever own my whole heart. That man is Jesus Christ."
I'm sorry I failed to come by and return the favor of reading your article, fexurbis. Actually, Booga has it pretty well nailed. My article was done with broad strokes to make a man (hopefully) a good "lover". I didn't try to offer advice on how to meet or pick women. I simply hoped my advice could serve to make a few men realize that women don't think like men do under many circumstances, and so their expectations are different. But I'd agree with virtually everything you say here, so there's no "challenge" involved. We simply chose to address different topics... related, yes, but still different.
Thanks again for your input, Booga. I'd go further than "punching the fewest holes in their walls" to say that what informs my schema is the desire to establish fulfilling human connections, in this case, with women. The only other human needs I can think of that figure so prominently among us are the needs for productivity (Karl Marx) and leisure ( or "expenditure" as George Bataille termed it). But to get back to the main point, I figured a long time ago - in puberty - that receiving attention from women did not give me automatic entry into their inner worlds. I can say without false modesty that I'm one guy whose attention/sex ratio abnormally favors the top part of the equation. I'm chaste as paper, but no one will believe me. I'm only now realizing that I have a huge problem compromising with my basic sense of self-worth (because of an Oedipal/inferiority complex which I'll relieve you guys of knowing). And "the chase" does exactly that... it injures my self-esteem. If I could turn the world around, I'd have all men quit "the chase" and, further, quit confusing attention with coital invitation. It'd reflect much better on myself as a member of the male gender. P.S. I've only read your post detailing the resolution of your relationship with your ex-girlfriend today. I commend you on that, and keep guessing, out of unabashed curiosity, which of the "to-be-avoided" personality types you've added to your list based on your recent experience.
The "challenge", Foxes_Den, was none other than sheer jest. I enjoy the dialogue it produced, nevertheless. Cheers.
imhurria, your "girls=evil" sig cracks me up to no end. It is something that most men have been guilty of saying in their inner sanctums after experiencing frustration... I won't say which men those are...lol.
I apologize, Wikipedia is my source: 'Modern academic fencing, the "Mensur", is neither a duel nor a sport. It is a traditional way of training and educating character and personality. So in a Mensur bout, there is no winner and no loser. The participants, or Paukanten, use specially-developed swords, the so-called Mensurschläger (or simply Schläger; the plural form is identical to the singular form), which exist in two versions. The most common weapon is the "Korbschläger" with a basket-type hilt (German Korb or "basket"). In some universities in the eastern part of Germany the so-called "Glockenschläger" is in use which is equipped with a bell-shaped hilt (German Glocke or "bell"). These universities are Leipzig, Berlin, Greifswald, Dresden, Tharandt (the Forestry College there, now part of the Dresden University of Technology), Halle on the Saale, Frankfurt/Oder and Freiberg. In Jena both "Korbschläger" and "Glockenschläger" are used, also there are often Studentenverbindungen from other cities, that use "Glockenschläger", that is, because they have got their origin in one of these eastern universities and had to move to Western Germany after WW II. Fencers are protected by a chainmail shirt and gauntlets, padding on the throat and right arm, and steel goggles with a nose guard. They fence at arm's length and stand more or less immobile, attempting to hit the unprotected areas of their opponent's face and head. Flinching or dodging is not allowed, the goal being less to avoid injury than to endure it stoically. A doctor is generally present to attend to injuries and stop the fight if necessary. The scar resulting from a hit is called a Schmiss (German for a "smite"), or Renommierschmiss (bragging scar), and was regarded as a badge of honor and a form of ritual scarification up to the first half of the 20th century. Wounds were typically sewn up rather crudely in the past, in order to produce scarring. Today, fencers prefer the work of plastic surgeons to avoid unnecessary scarring.' http://theresalduncan.typepad.com/witostaircase/2006/week4/index.html - black and white photo toward middle of page;
I can relate -- any guy could. Often, playing the mating game feels like auditioning for a series of directors who aren't sure what movie they want to make, or even whether they want to make a movie at all. But I'm not sure being the object of pursuit is any easier. Shocking as it may seem, not all guys are sensitive bundles of brilliance like you and me; plenty are two-timers, abusers, layabouts, leeches, and plain old assholes. Picking Mr. Right out of that mob has got to be quite a chore, especially when your critical faculties are numbed by a hungry womb and shamed into inaction by a negative body image. All of my very worst relationships were with girls who'd pursued me, or who had made themselves available when I was hardest-up. From the very beginning, part of me knew I wasn't that interested -- either we had too little in common, or she wasn't that attractive -- but because I, like you, so hated looking around and playing the game, I took what was offered. The result was always the same: I wasted months of my time, not to mention the girl's. One or both of our hearts always ended up broken. So, much as I hate submitting the ol' resume in the dating market, I've reached the point where I don't see any alternative to it. Being quizzed, scrutinized, pigeonholed, and often rejected by the equivalent of the big firms can't be much worse than bouncing from one telemarketing job to another. Oh, by the way, Marx and Nietzsche both sported Renommierschmissen.
