Why do Christians stress the importance of free will when ultimatley there are only two paths: heaven and hell? What is so special about the free will given by God when really we are damned if we dont follow God's path?
also god is suppose to be all knowing, he knows who will be in heaven and who in hell before that person is even born. so if god already knows what your fate is going to be before hand how can it be said a person has free will. free will means a person can act in any number of possible ways and it is up to the individual to decide to which way to act, but if god knows how your gonna act even before hand what REAL free will are you exercising, your just exercing gods will which amounts to slavery.
yeah, my morality teacher tries to explain it to us. it doesnt really make sense, but i see it like you live your life "freely", but still, God SOMEHOW knows what youre going to do. kinda like fast forwarding a movie to view the ending, but you still dont control how the movie was directed. thats just how i see it. but i still dont see the point of free will when there is only one way to salvation. I would almost feel better if God said "no, youre going to follow me and go to heaven" At least i wouldnt have a reason or chance to rebel.
Because foreknowledge does not imply a causal force. My clock says 6:48. I know that in five minutes it will be (roughly) 6:53. Did I *cause* clock changing from 6:48 to 6:53? So, just because God knows what you will do, doesn't mean that you have done it, nor does it mean that you have been absolved of your ability to choose. God knows not only what has happened and what will happen, but the etirety of "what might have been." He knows the complete end of every single possibility. He also knows the path of actuality. How does foreknowledge of what will occur somehow limit free will? Just because God knows the path we will take doesn't somehow limit our ability to chose that path. If we chose a different path, God would know that one too. How does that follow? How does simply knowing the future amount to *causing* it? If I give you a choice, let's say that "you can live in pain for the rest of your life, or I can give you one million dollars" I am pretty certain that I know what your decision would be. Did I *cause* your decision? Could you choose to live in pain? Yes. Did I cause that choice? No. Most people would rather have money than pain, so I would assume that most people would take the money. God, who understands the heart and knows our thoughts, would know with certainty what each person would say. It just does not follow that foreknowledge equates to being a causal agent.
I hate thinking about this stuff because it is so frustrating. You think you have the answer and then you realise something else. Of course it would be nice if you could come to some delinquence and believe in god or alah or whatever... but there is always a question mark at the end of the road....
First, bad analogy, the clock has no free will, has no other option but to be 6:53 in five minutes. Same goes for the movie analogy, which is predetermined (prerecorded). Second, if God knows all possibilities, and the actuality, then it implies that the outcome of a given situation is predetermined. God just knowing all the possibilities leaves a little room for choice (maybe), but if God also knows the ACTUAL real outcome (the one we WILL chose), then how can one have any choice? It is clear a path of action exists (god's plan, so to speak) and we are just following it. We may act like we have free will, we may honestly believe we do, but in reality we're following a predetermined course.
interesting thread; i've been studying free will theories the past couple of weeks after coming upon some questions about the idea myself. i found this idea interesting: god is omnibenevolent and omniscient. we are created by god, & given free will. some of us freely choose god, some of us do not - the latter go to hell and suffer eternal torment. now, if god is omnibenevolent, then he cannot want to inflict suffering. therefore, he cannot want to create people who he pre-knows will choose against him, and go to hell. because god is also omnipotent, he can choose not to create non-believers, and still have those on earth who freely choose him and go to heaven, thereby bypassing suffering and still maintaining free will. .... any comments? peace, sophia
hey dude, i don't quite follow what you're asking. xtians would respond that god gives us free will because he wants us to freely choose to love him, rather than live some sort of robotic, automatic existence. peace, sophia
No human analogy works very well, because God transcends time, which we cannot fully comprehend. John Wesley put it well: And, First, let us look forward on the whole work of God in the salvation of man; considering it from the beginning, the first point, till it terminates in glory. The first point is, the foreknowledge of God. God foreknew those in every nation those who would believe, from the beginning of the world to the consummation of all things. but, in order to throw light upon this dark question, it should be well observed, that when we speak of God's foreknowledge, we do not speak according to the nature of things, but after the manner of men. For, if we speak properly, there is no such thing as either foreknowledge or afterknowledge in God. All time, or rather all eternity, (for the children of men,) being present to him at once, he does not know one thing in one point of view from everlasting to everlasting. As all time, with everything that exists therein, is present with him at once, so he sees at once, whatever was is, or will be, to the end of time. But observe: We must not think they are because he knows them. No: he knows them because they are. Just as I (if one may be allowed to compare the things of men with the deep things of God) now know the sun shines: Yet the sun does not shine because I know it, but I know it because he shines. My knowledge supposes the sun to shine; but does not in anywise cause it. In like manner, God knows that man sins; for he knows all things: Yet we do not sin because he knows it, but he knows it because we sin; and his knowledge supposes our sin, but does not in anywise cause it. In a word, God, looking on all ages, from the creation to the consummation, as a moment, and seeing at once whatever is in the hearts of all the children of men, knows every one that does or does not believe, in every age or nation. Yet what he knows, whether faith or unbelief, is in nowise caused by his knowledge. Men are as free in believing or not believing as if he did not know it at all.
This is a mystery, but I think the answer lies in the parable of the weeds (Mt. 13:24-43). The unsaved somehow have an integral role in shaping the "harvest" of the saved. I'm guessing this means that their influence on our lives through various relationships is a vital part of our spiritual formation.
can you create something from nothing like God supposedly did? did the earth always exist if God is outside of time? If there was a beginning to the earht, that means there was a time when God created it, thus hes not outside of time.
ok, he created the universe....so God could say "ah yes, i remember when i created the universe" but he cant, if he is outside of time. The universe the earth you and me would have existed forever if there was no point when God created the universe.
interesting. "Thus, the proper understanding of God, time, and eternity would be that God exists changelessly and timelessly prior to creation and in time after creation." could you explain that to me? im not exactly sure what his final conclusion is. Is he saying that God lives both outside and inside of time?
Why wouldn't you choose free will over God? Why would you want to be confined, trapped, in that mind frame? Would you not want to choose what you do? Would you actually rely on the belief that everthing is predetermined? It doesnt make sense to me, because I know I can choose what to do and what not to do. I choose to live my life by the golden rule, and thats how its going to be for the rest of my life. I'm not trying to follow a path to heaven, but to live in peace with one another. I truly believe that this planet is our heaven, and its ALL of our choice(s), whether we want to make it that way or not.
i was saying that i would rather only know to love God; if the only thing i knew was to serve God. Giving us free will is just teasing us, because in the end there is only the will of God, and no matter how differently you lived your life, God is the inevitable ending. free will isnt a gift, because there is only one way to do it right.
huckfinn, i liked the bit from wesley there on the nature of god relating to time. it reminded me of the bit from slaughterhouse 5, "i see all time as you might see a stretch of the Rocky Mountains. All time is all time. It does not lend itself to warnings or explanations. It simply is. Take it moment by moment, and you will find that we are all, as I've said before, bugs in amber." so, interesting idea of god's experience of time as one moment, unchanging. it brings up the matter of prayer, seems now that god's experience leaves prayer unneccessary? i don't know.. oh, and the question of why god creates people whom he knows will choose wrong, and suffer eternal torment. i suspected that a response would probably have something to do with "for the good of the whole". however, the parable doesn't say anything about non-believers benefitting believers. it indicates that it is impossible to know believers from non-believers, and that is not true if god is omniscient! it still looks confusing and somewhat cruel to create beings whom you know will choose wrong, and whom are destined to eternal torment in hell, when you are omniscient and omnipotent, and under no obligation to create them in the first place. ......Matthew 13:40-43 ‘Men pull up weeds and burn them in the fire. It will be like that at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels. They will take away everything that causes sin. They will take out all people who do evil things. They will throw them into a great fire. Many people will weep then, and be very sorry. Then the righteous people will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. If you hear this, understand it’. well, i hear it but i don't understand it! this follows that god is unaware of who is good and who is bad until the day of judgment, or the harvest when the weeds are burned. god already knows who will choose him, even before we are created. therefore there is no reason to create beings from nothing, whom he knows will end up suffering eternal torment in hell, especially if god is omnibenevolent, supremely good and just. the old hindu man dying somewhere in india right now, god created him knowing that he would not follow jesus, knew that he was headed for hell even before he put him into being, and yet he still did it, and i don't know why. peace, sophia
i've heard people say that before too; generally people assume that free will is the best choice, but i is debatable. i don't know if i agree with you here colours, but it's interesting and worth pondering. i mean, as it is, generally i think that it would be argued that god gave us free will so that we can choose him of our own accord. i don't think free will makes us love god any better than without free will, since he is all-powerful and we're sort of threatened with eternal torment in hell if we don't choose him. ... it seems that to really choose to love someone freely, there should be no other issues at hand, no gifts in the end, and no threats lurking in the background. it should be a matter of equals, that's where real love lies. if it's going to be any other way, then yes, i can understand that some people would argue that it would be better if we had no free will, and were perhaps given a special "believers" gene at birth or something, to make us all come tobelieve and glorify god at some point in our lifetime, if that's what god wants us to do anyhow. peace, sophia
