Evolution IS Creation

Opinion

As far as occam can see.
Evolution IS creation.
In 14 billion years a universe of stars and planets and life
evolved from a primal singularity.
Was this process directed?
If it was.
That is creation.
[the time frame is NOT RELEVENT]

It takes an artist months to make a masterwork from
materials already at hand.
It seems it requires billions of 'our' years to make a universe
full of life. [from materials ALREADY AT HAND]

As an agnostic..Occam cannot say if there IS or WAS such direction.
Insufficient data.
But the obvious tendency for reality to make more and more complex structures within a reality that includes the big E [entropy]
Why is reality complex? Unless there is a reason.
If everything were random chance... reality would be homogenous

Is certainly indicative evidence for direction.


Occam

 

I agree wholeheartedly

 

i disagree

it seems that anything can be used to prove/unprove any beleif. it all depends on the perspective one takes when they are considering each idea.

just because you beleive something does not make it true

 

Mr Migu

And which belief is occam proposing?

That reality as we as human beings seem to agree on.
That is a world in orbiting a star, Itself in orbiting a galaxy.
One of seemingly hundreds of billions of galaxies.
Are as far as we can tell..real.
And show all the characteristics of structures that have taken many billions of years of growth/process to be what they are now.
And that this titanic structure called the observed universe, and us.
May be a result of 'direction'

The 'anything' occam uses to support his proposition.
Is the existance of the observed universe itself and it's massive
complexity and structure.

Occam never claimed he could 'prove' anything.
He put forward an idea, a concept, that creation of the universe
as we observe it, and live it. By an agent we might call a god.
May require a period of motion/time to accomplish.
In fact.. 14 billion years.

To a 'god' that may be the equivalent of the time it takes you to
build something you really wanted to. From what you have at hand.
To you that may be a tree house..or a sculpture.
To a god.. It may be a universe where independent self aware beings
can come to be.
Maybe a god wants some company.
Maybe somewhere along our races' great future path.
We learn enough to find such a being [or race] that we have called god.
And it will say
"thank myself, someone to talk to at last."

It may be just as simple as that.

Occam

PS. A reminder..Occam is an agnostic. He CANNOT say that a being/race
we might call a god. One who's desire resulted in our existance.
Exists
He does however admit..freely...
that the existance of such a being/race..and such a purpose.
Makes reality a far more interesting place to exist in.

And in the end does it not all come to the same options?
If we are a product of chance...
then we must make our own purpose.
If we are not.
Then has a god spoken to us ALL and told us our purpose.
NO
[go on , bleet your denials based on faith]
So,, we STILL must make our own purpose.

So far,, humanity as a race has none, but to exist.
Lets do SOMETHING

 

how do you know we are evolviong? we could just be getting worse in another state of mind...

 

BFF

Please answer the question below.

Pick A...or B

Question: Would you rather exist as
A:
A member of 21st century civilisation. [in newcastle ].
Where you will not starve to death if U use your head.
Where killing violence is hardly ever seen on the street.
Where the life expectancy is 70 odd years or more.
Where a short walk to the library will place at your hands the
accumulated knowledge of 3000 years of human history.
B:
A member of 100,000 bc civilisation
Where U will starve to death very easily
Where violence is the way of existance.
Where the life expectancy is 10-15 years if U are damn lucky.
[or smart, which is why we homo sapiens sapiens exist now, we found the the greatest gift, and challenge, to survival, reason]
Where the only information U have is what U can interpret
without a formal language and no education beyond survival.
Literally, no smarter than todays chimps
[themselves classified by us as SELF AWARE BEINGS..people.
There are THREE intelligent races on earth as we define them scientifically]

If we are not evolving.. then U should have no probs picking B

The difference between A and B is called evolution

Some say there is no such thing.
That for humans there was no B
Some also say there is a nazi flying saucer base at the south pole

Occam

 

life isnt so black and white. I would love to be living in the B world for the simple pleasure of living so that i survive, as aposed to living for matieral possesions which are dictated to me through the media which is all caused by globalisation. I try my hardest not to be effected by the world today and go back to living like a simpltoon where my problems are how to get my next meal, instead of turning into a self centred bitch where i am worrying about how my hair looks and what kind of car i have. I know this sounds like i dont appreciate what i have, i really do. But why do we have to look at the world so black and white, assuming that because time is going on and human technology is growing that we are better off?

 

FireFly

Occam has heart for your position.
It is the same for all who feel .
And while occam wields reason in his arguements.
He does so beause he has a heart.
Without heart. He would not care what U or others think or feel.

Yes.. The world we live in is
A bloody history of lies and deciet. A epoch of backstabbing and power plays. And thats just the stuff up to 1801.
After that. Reason. that is science. Was turned to the will of government and iindustry.
The result...a world where children are thrown into snakepits called schools
where minds are stamped down to the lowest denominator called
'fitting in'
Where what a person feels means NOTHING.
Yet heart and mind are brother and sister.

This is a world
Where what U own and how U look are of great importance.
Important to who?
How can any human being say that looks and money make a worthy life?

Only those who's concept of a worhty life is centered on themselves.

What you say in your post is a truth as far as occam is concerned.
He understands that the path of technology.
Of reason.
Of gaining more understanding.
Has been mostly corrupted by the greedy and the egotistical.
Has resulted in hydrogen bombs and pollution. Of global war and starvation.

Yet it is our only way out of the situation.
We must use reason to escape the traps of reason where it is subverted by our old friend SURVIVAL EGO.

Occam is by admission a romantic.
He dreams of humanity doing something really isefull in the universe.
Yet we have to 'breed out' the self centered, the manipulators.
The dictators.
We do this the same way we in the west have made 'racist' a dirty word.
We use reason to out think the ego.
We use reason,, to form group acceptance/norms

We make racial sanity..the norm.

Occam

 

thats truely is beautiful. I wish there were more people out there like you who really cared the way you do and could comprhend as much.

 

Fire Fly

There are many millions of us ..
Many.
Many speak their minds. [ look up 'Noam Chomsky']
Some are to frightened by the awesome conformist
power of modern consumerism to speak out.

Yet there is no conspiracy. No great plan to control humanity.
We have done it to ourselves...
Or more correctly..allowed ego to do it.

There is no them and us.

There is just US.
We can do anything WE want to do.
Make earth a paradise [ more than it is]
Explore the universe.
Be gods.

All we have to do.. is do it.
With reason at the wheel [ we can do anything]
Not ego.

" We have found the enemy, and he is us"
Or more accurately. The enemy is the 'i' in US.
It dominates our human world.
And it lives in fear and ignorance.
For the 'i' sees no reason.

And this is why occam does not call himself..'i'.

Occam

 

god's creation IS evolution. boggles the mind why people don't get that.

 

Someone told them they would go to hell if they beleived that. This serves as a constant reminder to me just how blind faith can be and how effectively propaganda can shadow truth.

 

the point of creation vrs evolution is that some people contend that the king james bible is the word of god, and that evolution would prove that to be untrue

 

the point of creation vs evolution is that some people contend that the king james bible is the word of god and others think that it is ALL full of shit.

 

One point is that anyone who believes in evolution but throws out the study of a major part of the evolution of the human race (the bible) is a fucking moron.

The other point is that anyone who believes in creation but throws out the study of a major part of God's creation (evolution) is a fucking moron.

You need to look at the 2 ideas (evolution/creation) holistically, otherwise you don't see the whole picture. If I only analyzed the shit that came out of peoples asses, would I understand what it is to be human?

 

The Bible is one of the most significant books to ever affect our society, but not our biology...

 

occam, i am touched by the things you write and the way you write them...i feel your heart and it is strong. you are one of many....
romantic notions are good....all the great ones were romantics or revolutionaries in their own way....
and i agree evolution is creation...never thought of it like that, but rock on

we evolve and create everyday!

 

occamm (sorry if i spelld that wrong) i did not read this whole thread but i can tell you "reality" is not complex at all in fact i find it very simple!! how in your ultimute wisdom can you find it complex??

 

You must not discount the effects of society upon biology when looking at evolutionary forces. Evolution not only gives rise to society, it is effected by the development of society within itself.

 

then explain reality....cause that confuses me a bit....my reality and your reality may not be the same at all...so is one right and one wrong....