Ego Question

I have no idea where exactly to put this thread, but here goes. I am confused as to why ego is the "bad guy." Does anyone care to "enlighten" me on this issue? Any help is appreciated.

The Mushroom Man

 

because it is the source of all human suffering.

 

ego is wrong view which means you are not perceiving reality properly. We live in a prison of the senses and a body but it is not who we really are in reality. We are at essence consciousness which perceived unfiltered is bliss. We live in delusion because of the belief in an ego and all the other wrong views which keeps us experiencing reality limited and full of suffering.

 

Just wondering, who decides the right and the wrong?

The Mushroom Man

 

God. But God also realizes that we cannot be perfect or always do right and stay away from wrong. So He doesn't look down on us or judge us.

 

So whoever we believe to be our "celestial superior" is the one who makes the rules? I'm only asking because it seems that a lot of this "enlightened" stuff I hear about is just a big ol' ego feed for the people who are "enlightened."

The Mushroom Man

 

haha Yes your right it is for a lot of the 'enlightened' people. And then those 'enlightened' people look down on you for everything you do or say when they themselves do the same.

But yes I do believe God makes the rules, but I don't exactly look at them like rules.

 

I see the whole religion conundrum as soemthing that is completely unproveablee. There is no way to prove that god does or does not exist, therefore, it is essentially a moot point. I wish people could just keep it to themselves and not bug others about it.

As for ego, I like my ego, I think it is healthy, and i don't think it leads me in the wrong direction. Also, as far enlightenment is concerned, it seems that it is essentially a quest to escpae from the evil "ego" that one who is enlightened (or seeks enlightenment) doesn't nessecarily have. It seems akin to hididng from the "monster in your closet." You don't like it/are afraid of what it will do to you, so you try as hard as you can to get away from it. Once you escape the bad ego, then you are "enlightened," the same way that once a kid gets older, he isn't afraid of the monster. You follow me? What i'm saying is maybe your disposition towards ego and its functions leads you to not have a "bad" ego, but instead one that leads you towards "enlightenment." This is probably pretty confusing, it's hard to put into words. Just ask if you need clarification.

The Mushroom Man

 

fuck ego, be yourself

 

Both God and Ego are misleading words, hanging onto these words is sometimes more of a hindrance than a help

God is a very broad term, I think when talking in relation to Ego, God is not a 'celestial superior' but is actually not separate from who you are, and ultimately cannot be known intellectually (because who you are is prior to being something and knowing something)

Ego is when there is identification with form, when it is said ' I am Somebody' Ultimately, who we are is prior to being somebody, therefore , we are not who we think we are.

People often make 'their' ego a bad guy. They create a resistance to what is, and so they still suffer. Ego identification happens, it's perfectly normal because it does happen. When it is realised that 'I am not who I think I am' then there comes a freedom from the bondage and suffering of trying to be somebody. Identification with form sometimes happens, it's no big deal, it's just more content coming and going within who you are.

Here's a pretty way of putting it;

Who you are is like the sky

Thoughts, Ego(which is a thought too) Sense perception, emotions, people, objects places, the body, absolutely EVERYTHING else is like the clouds that appear in the sky. They come and go, they're fleeting - transient.

Everything that is something is impermenant, it always changes, it is born and it dies. You are that which is eternal, you are that from which all form appears and dissapears. The formless space in which form comes and goes.

 

The typical process is: (1) We don't see a problem, life is dandy as it is. (2) We suffer ALOT. (3) We begin to question our reality, "oh oh... it ain't so dandy after all" (this may seem like a problem). (4) the doubt about this self we've always thought ourselves to be results in shattering the illusion, followed by (5) the realization that there's no problem as there's no "self". And so (6) We don't see a problem, life is dandy as it is.

So what's the difference between #1 and #6? The only difference is that at the #1 stage there is an identification with a false-made sense of "self"... which ALWAYS leads to suffering. We don't always recognize how much we suffer because of it, because we can tolerate ALOT of suffering. But at some point it becomes too much. And this awakens something within us that is beneath the form and identification with a "something". And we let go our attachment and identity, and the suffering goes with it.

So if you like your ego and think it's healthy, Great! Enjoy it! There's nothing for you to do. There's nothing for you to seek. There's nothing for you to change. And if you find that you're suffering a bit too much, then at that point you may question this sense of your
"self". Until then, there's really nothing you need to concern yourself with.

 

You see I never understodd this whole "we don't know who we are" stuff. Out of everyone, everything in the entire universe/ whatever you consider to be everything, who would know us better than, well, us? Why can't I be me? Why does there always have to be this huge nearly impenetrable barrier between me and this "spirit" thing that apparently guides me and is the "real" me? This just doesn't make sense to me, why we would not know who we are. I know who I am at this moment, and at the next moment, I will still know who I am, and that will continue until I get alzheimers/use to many drugs/die/ whatever happens. Is there a chance that Ego and all of this evil, mysterious shit is just somethign we make up as a scapegoat because we have problems? You know how when someone overanalyzes something, they can miss a very obvious answer? Maybe none of this shit exists!

The Mushroom Man

 

this is something that is fairly difficult to express. We are extremely limited when words form the extent of our abilities to communicate.

You say you know who you are, but who are you? How do you define, conceptualize, view yourself? Do you ever just lay in bed at night, and ponder what it means to be conscious, and think about who you are? And then, after you've exhausted a list of what you think makes you YOU, does it really register that those things are truly the extent of your being and existence?

A lot of people think they know themselves, when in fact, they couldn't be more far off, myself included.

Once you realize the ego for what it is, and you are aware of how it operates, there is no denying it's existence, and the boundries it creates.

 

It boils down to belief, really. You seem to believe that there is more to us than what we can think/see/conceptualize (correct me if I am wrong, please). I happpen to believe that we are the extent of it, that what we beieve ourselves to be is what we are, and that the human mind is essentially the paragon of all thinkingg ability. There is nothing beyond what thee human mind can create. Hell, even this whole "beyond yourself" concept was thought up by...a human. It doesn't get any better than us (at least on this planet). You may say this is just the ego talking, I would say it is the mind, but hey, no use arguing it. Also, what exactly is the ego and what is it worth?

The Mushroom Man

 

This might be a bit long, but I promise if you read it you might find the answer you're looking for.

There are two "right" views about "beliefs"- They're either ALL right, or ALL wrong. So first off, you're right, all concepts and things are just creations of the mind, as is the ego.

Basically to get away from the cookie cutter Buddhist responses- Your "ego" is not a single "thing," so much as it is a system of beliefs and attachments that you call yourself. When you say you're a Buddhist, or that you don't believe in something, or that your car is yours, or that your body is yours, etc. that is all what is called "ego."

When you're happy for a reason (like, hey I just won $100 bucks), that's ego. When your sad or unhappy, what's suffering is ego. The ego attaches ownership or disownership to various creations of the mind attempting to define itself/yourself. If you define yourself in any way that is ego.

For example, I would venture to say that your beliefs that I quoted above weren't always what you believed. But at the moment that is one way that you're attaching yourself, and defining yourself. BUT who was the "you" that was there before that belief? It was still "you." Who was you before your current hair style, your current clothes, you could talk, walk, etc.? It wasn't your body, that's completely new every seven years or whatever the figure is. So where is this "you" that you call you. The parts don't equal the total.

Now to the fun part- going beyond the mind. The mind is everything. Everything is a creation of the mind. Take some LSD and you have a different reality. Take some salvia and you have a completely different, but still very real, reality. Have the belief that waking state reality is all that there is, and your reality is different than a religous person. All reality in the waking state is subjective because it is a creation of the mind. Speak English and your reality is different than someone who speaks German. Etc. ad nasuem.
In the same way that a person experiences a dream as real when it's happening but then when waking you realize you were multiple people, places and things- all illusions- regular waking state reality is the same; experiencer, experience, and experienced are one and the same- the real you/us/we. Regular waking state consciousness can be awoken from.

To go beyond the mind is something that can only be experienced by the experiencer. There are a thousand.5 different ways to wake up, but all require two things- a completely quiescent mind, and the inward question of "who am I?"

Because all things and concepts are movements of the mind, when you still them everything ceases to be (literally, not figuratively). At some point during this complete silence and nothingness (when in fact the true feeling of being everything is very present) the very, very, very subtle thought/feeling "but I'm still here, who is still here if nothing is here?" arises and the looker looks at himself and sees the Infinite and Everythingness that is beyond everything. It is everything and nothing simultaneously and forever.

There is no way to describe the experience except to experience it. It is fundamentally beyond all words, thoughts, ideas, etc.

One way to think about it is a super tangled rope. At one point a rope could easily see that it was one single thing. But then it twisted this way because it was interesting, then another, etc. until at one point it was so twisted that it could no longer tell it was a single rope, but could only see bits and pieces, so it started labling the bits and pieces. Then it said "I'm not that bit or piece, how could I be that when I'm clearly this?" Then it started to look very deeply at what it was, and slowly it became clear that when it released the notions of "I am this," or "I am that" that everything it saw was in fact itself in different places.

(Of course that's not to be taken too literally, but it does illustrate the point)

To me, just that you asked the question suggests some part of you wants to know the Truth, and that that part of you doesn't believe this is all there is. That your defending that position is a characteristic of ego indentifying itself with an idea. Let all that go, and just look inward at who you really are. When you hear something, ask "who is hearing this?" Same for seeing, thinking, etc. Meditation is an invaluable tool in this process fwiw.

Best wishes on your search if you decide to try it out!

 

no.

If I were to simply believe it, then I would have room to doubt myself, because it would only be a belief. I have no doubt. This is something I know.

 

There's really no problem here, and no convincing is necessary. Like I said before,

 

Somethingwitty, that's the kinda shit I like, thanks!

So, you say that simply by idenifying "you" is ego. I mean to have the concept, or as neodude puts it, the knowledge, that you have no ego, you must have an ego that is saying you have no ego, you follow me? It can't go both ways, really. Yes, I am a different person than I was seven years ago, hell I am a different person than I was 5 minutes ago, but the sum of all the "people" I have been equals who I am now. All of my past knowledge, experiences, all that shit adds up to The Mushroom Man of 8/6/08. Just because one part of the rope is brown and the other is green and yet another is white, it is all still the same rope. The rope knows it has a green, brown, white, etc. part, and sees that without any of those parts, it would not be the rope it is. Just because all of my cells are different every 7 years (just say that is the figure, for the sake of the argument) it doesn't mean I am a different person. A person is not only a body, it is a mind as well, but the mind is as far as it goes. I'm not saying it's all waking state. Dreams, drug induced hallucinations, meditation, all of that stuff is real, as it is simply a creation of the mind. The mind is the top dog, that's where it all is. Why we need to put this "evil" ego thing in there is a mystery. If we don't think there is an ego, there is no ego. I know I attach myself to my achievements and all that stuff, and it's not a bad thing. Things would be pretty shitty if everyone just sat around not caring about their achievements and all that. I'm not going to go seeking for whatever truth you speak of. I don't mena to offend or anything, I just like my truth, as you like the truth you know. The reason why I keep responding is not because I jsut want to argue with you guys, I just want to see how much information I can get out of this, becasue it fascinates me, really. Thanks everyone who has posted here, you have really been helping me.

The Mushroom Man

 

Haha, no worries about offending me. You bring up logical and good points.

I'm not saying ego is evil, I'm just saying it's an illusion, and that by identifying yourself with it you're not going to be as happy as you could be. Because the ego takes on it's identity from external, constantly changing, and finite things, it will never be truly happy or satisfied. The ego is bondage to objects and ideas.

If the mind is the top dog, then who is the perceiver that knows the difference between waking, dreaming, and drug induced states? Who is actually perceiving what the mind is creating? The real you can not be identified with outside sources logically or realistically, because by the time the outside sources have been identified with they have changed, so you're identifying yourself with an illusion to begin with. Where does it go when you sleep?

If you take a car, destroy it, then from completely new parts build a new one is it still the same car just because it's a car? Of course not. You calling yourself an accumulation of memories is like that. You're defining yourself based on some conditioned thoughts that extend back as far as you can remember. You were you before you could remember I assume? Your parents knew you before you had the things you're defining yourself by. Where was this you before you became aware of it and then started being defined and defining it?

It's not a question of "thinking there is no ego," it's a question of knowing there is no "I." There is absolutely no such thing as a seperate self in the real Reality.

Things start to get tricky, because in order to leave the mind and move to a higher level of consciousness you have to start to disassemble conditioned patterns of thought and mind. Drugs can do this (when people have ego dissolution and say things like "I am dead" for example). Meditation and mindfulness are other more beneficial ways. At any rate, duality (like right/wrong, you/me, this/that, etc.) is just a precept and creation of mind. The mind functions through duality, but this is just an illusion. The real Reality is paradoxical, beyond logic, and beyond comprehension. How can a fish know it's in water when it's only ever experienced water and nothing else? It has to experience something else, or else it doesn't even know it's in water. The mind is like that. Because it is everything, if you don't try and go beyond it you have no idea that there is more.

Without the mind there is only God/Self or whatever you want to call it. God/Self is simultanesously everything including mind. Anything that can be perceived with the six sense is part of God/Self's dream-creation.

 

There is more, and the fact that we know there is more simply proves that the mind is the top dog. I know I probably sound like someone who just wants to have everything his way, but I'm really not trying to be. By realizing, well, anything, is a subconscious affirmation of the fact that the mind is "top dog." Yeah, a fish can't know if there is anything but water if he has never experienced water, but if another fish tells him "yo, dude, there is air up there" the fish can say "oh, sweet, air" and then he knows that there is something besides water. By talking to all of you, I know that there are people who believe, people who "know," that there is something beyond the mind. I doubt it because the mind is the creator of everything we can possibly imagine (if the mind can't imagine it, it doesn't exist, because there is no way for us to comprehend it or have any idea about it), but that's not to say I am completely against the possibility.

As for the car thing, there is a flaw. You can mash a car into it's raw components and create a new car, you can't crush a human and make a new human. Yeah we change in subtle ways, but we are essentially the same person the entire way through. Unlike the parts of a car, my prior thoughts have not been melted away and formed into new ones. They remain in storage, and new ones arrive. It's more akin to having a basic body, and putting the rest of the stuff on top of it. After the whole car is done, you begin adding new parts on top of those that are already there, because you cannot take parts off. Ego doesn't just throw shit away (at least mine doesn't).

I don't necessarily remember what happened before I could remember, perse, but I do know that it had an effect on me. If my parents hadn't done X to me when I was uber-little, then Y wouldn't have happened later, and I wouldn't have come to Q realization, so therefore I would be a different person. When a kid is little, he may not remember things to the point that he can recall them in waking state, but he does know them in his subconscious mind. If a very small child, a few months even, is shown a clown and then hit repeatedly every time after he is shown the clown, he will be terrified of clowns. He won't remember it (someone will need to tell him about it), but he sure as hell will know he is terrified of clowns.

There is nobody to perceive what the mind creates, the mind perceives it. WE perceive it. I assume that you don't believe in a WE, but there is the inevitable fact that all of these human things out there have some sort of manifestation.

Alas, this is all in vain, because we, the two of us, have totally different religious views, apparently. For you, there is a "god/self" or whatever you want to call it, for me, there is the mind. The mind is what creates the 5 senses, it is what perceives them, and it is what tells us what to do with those perceptions. As for the ego, it is simply the realization that we are the sum of all our parts, and that all of the parts are indispensable to our current self. Yeah we change, but as long as we can accept what changed us, then we are all good. IMHO, it is when we begin to deny that this, that or the other thing changed us, or that we can't be changed that problems arise.

The Mushroom Man