Don´t remain tied, Darwin has lied

He saying since he can't understand something, it can't be so.

 

In a way yes.

Its called Scientific Method.

You observe, compare and repeat.

Since none of us was alive to observe what happened in the beginning we have the next option.
Find other examples of working ordered information [those examples in which we do know the beginning] and if we repeatedly see the same 'cause'...

.. Then, based on what we know, we say "Scientifically Speaking, Ordered working and complex information comes from Intelligent Designers".

Now, you CAN believe that working ordered information spontaneously assembles itself through 'Chance' or 'Probablility'.
Thats fine.
But its not based on what we know (observe) in the world around us.

 

Do not compound your errors by misrepresenting the scientific method.

Evolution goes beyond eyesight.
It goes beyond biology.

Start with Cosmology and Chemistry, move to Relativity and Quantum physics. Get a base in these, and you will begin to understand the nature of the univesrse.

Evolution is the way of the Universe- beginning with the simplicty of the big-bang and accumulting in the complexity of the intelligent mind.

 

A philosophical reflection:

The first thing the bible does is describe the big-bang; nothing evolving into something.
"Let there be light" and the evolution of the Universe begins.

 

Why do you keep bringing the Bible into this?

Why do you keep pointing to broad metaphysical concepts?

Why do you keep making personal denouncements.

Are you afraid of discussing the real hard scienctific method - or are you just admitting there is no scientific evidence Evolutionism works?

 

We do observe an enormous pool of Working Ordered Information, science has called this process evolution.

Do we know the cause? Not exactly, but the overriding mechanism is survival of the fitest. New gene combinations are created ALL the time. Every organism has some unique assembly of genes, which is why we can map them to an individual. Now it is true that we do not know EXACTLY how an entirely new gene is added to the code, but we see malformations all the time of people with an extra gene or missing a gene.

"All other" what? I do not know the 'cause' of evolution, and no one else does either. Anyone's 'cause' is just as good as anyone else's. Yousay it was god, someone else says it was the easter bunny. Your both just as right. I thought the argument here was wether or not evolution takes place. Have you conceded this point Brock?

 

You've already admitted you've no evidence for your case, and you've already demonstrated you lack a basic grasp of science.

As for the bible- are you trying to claim that creationism is YOUR idea and not from the bible? How far out in left field are you?

You would be wise to stand down, least you look more foolishly self-righteous than you already do.

You've become boringly repititous.

 

Think you need a link here to some brains who have busted me out of the equasion.......and taught me more than they could ever know....
Try starting this topic on here (it's a great place to air any theories you have)
WARNING, only for the brave of heart and those wishing to get educated.....

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/index.php? (Try Pseudophilosophy first!)

Reckon this will get some cool insights into some of these very good posts so far made.....

strawpup
also some links that are good:




Join Date: Feb 20th, 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 260
Here you go, have fun!

Scientific:
http://www.brainconnection.com/
http://cognews.com/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/
http://www.hawking.org.uk/home/hindex.html
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/html/home.html
http://www.neurology.org/
http://www.neurologychannel.com/
http://www.astrobiology.com/
http://www.universetoday.com/
http://www.bacteriamuseum.org/main1.shtml
http://www.med.harvard.edu/AANLIB/home.html

religious:
http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/

Humanities:
http://jamaica.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/
http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/
http://plato.stanford.edu/contents.html
http://www.iep.utm.edu/
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/
http://www.psychology.org/
http://www.friesian.com/
http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/

Misc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.promo.net/pg/
http://www.bartleby.com/
http://www.netlibrary.com/Gateway.aspx
http://www.librarypoint.org/netlibrary_signup.asp
__________________
"But nothing is sweeter than to occupy a lofty sanctuary of the mind,
Well fortified with the teachings of the wise,
Where we may look down on others as they stumble along,
Vainly searching for the true path of life..."
-Lucretius

 

Putting the cart before the horse.

Think about what you just said Pop.... You are insisting that evolution caused ordered information because you insist that evolution caused ordered information, therefore evolution can cause ordered information.

Lets play Scientist for a few minutes.

The Scientist will tell us to be 'The Man from Mars'. In other words.. lets completely separate ANY cultural bias or assumptions.

You just showed up on Earth.
Youve never heard of 'Evolutionism'' or 'Creation' etc etc.

You cant go back in time to figure why these living creatures have very complex, ordered and working information in the first place.

So, the very best you can do is find OTHER examples of working ordered information and see what caused them.

You find some books (far far less complex information than DNA but they have to do).
You discover it was organised and created by Intelligent Design.

Computers - ID

Vehicles - ID

Even something like a Painting - ID

In fact... you cant find ANY examples of complex ordered design existing without an Intelligent Designer behind them.

So you are faced with a Scientific Conclusion - To the best of your knowledge - Complex Ordered and working information IS Caused by Intelligent Design.

It really is that simple.

Its becoming difficult to dumb this down any more folks!

Absolutely NOT.

Im not giving you my 'Opinion' - Im stating for a fact that this is NOT ACCEPTED by ANY Creationists, Evolutionists or anyone who understands Darwinism and why it IS REJECTED ABOUT 80 YEARS ago as completely impossible as ANY KIND OF MECHANISM.

For Shits Sakes People - READ A BOOK ABOUT YOUR EVOLUTIONISM WRITTEN IN THE LAST 50 YEARS PLEASE!?

Finally we agree on something!
PRE-EXISTING Genes are Combined into Unique combinations.
Yes they are!

This is at least one good reason why NEW genes are not needed.

So far neither you or anyone else has ANY idea how new genetic information is created.

I believe Gould once came the closest to ANY form of theory regarding ANY kind of Mechanism - A MIRACLE.

You dont see them 'All the time'.. but when you do they are almost always extremely destructive and often LETHAL to the organism.

You are also refering to MUTATION of ALREADY EXISTING Genes.
NOT
I Repeat
NOT New Genes

[Im pretty sure we all agree that a damaged Gene is not exactly 'New Information anymore than the word 'Eolutionism' is New information because the 'V' is missing?]

No.
Someone who says the cause is 'Random Chance' brought about by 'Accident' does NOT have as good a cause as anyone else.

Theres is not based on observation of the world around us.

This does not work.

I say that common sense and facts tell us it was an Intelligent Designer [Whether we like it or not]

Suggesting the Easter Bunny is behind designing ordered information doesnt work since The Bunny appears to be an EFFECT of that Design.

The original topic was about 'Darwinism', which, so far, you seem to think is still Valid?

Based on what we know about the observable and testable world around us - Evolutionism COULD have happened - but the laws tell us it must be done by Intelligent Design.

Some in here (like Geckopelli) believe that brand new information has been miraculously created MILLIONS of times over MILLIONS of days.

At least most Creationists level it off at just 6 days!!

 

"dumb it down"! You're already the the low man on the totem pole!

give us a break!

Popthree13 has an excellent understanding of science and physics in particular.

"I say that common sense and facts tell us it was an Intelligent Designer [Whether we like it or not]"

Common sense against knowledge!

What a joke!

Magic from a mysterious magician in the sky or Evolution?

You're kicking your god in the teeth by deny the magnificence of reality, and scoffing at the intelligence he gave you to boot.

 

Why are you claiming Ive 'Admitted' having no evidence when I stated scientific evidence.

i.e. Observable and Retestable instances of working and orderly information are found to have an Intelligent Designer.

That IS the basis of Scientific Method, by the way.

Im not sure why you keep ramming the Bible into this part of the conversation but Intelligent Design/ers Creating the Universe has been standard in human history.

What a bizarre thing for you to say.

 

Geckopelli..

Could you please stop spamming these boards with Denouncements with no real purpose other than to insult.

Thanks

 

Your the one spamming this board.

You've lost the debate, yet you keep rreiterating the same things over again.

You insulted everyone on this thread with your dumming down comment.

You never presnted one piece of evidence for your creator yet you insist you did.

You belong on the christian forum.

You represent the scientific method as argument through analogy and "common sense".
A flat lie.

Grow-up, would you?

 

Geckopelli.. Dont worry about 'how im doing' or 'what I am'.
You shouldnt get so worked up that you need to remind me of your opinion every other post.
Just post your scientific evidence and let the chips fall where they may.

Sorry but I cant recall (or find) where you gave me evidence that New Genes appear in organisms?

I think you agreed that already existing genes can be scrambled and or damaged?

Do you know of any case where new genetic information appears?

Please answer the actual question?

Thanks

 

Broktoon insists that because the things man has created is an example of intelligent design than men must have been created by intelligent design. That is faulty logic.

 

He also insist on "new" genes, when it's been explained that, although viable genetic mutatins DO occur, none are required to produce a heretofore unseen species- which renders his concept moot.

In any case, the fossil record shows ample evidence of "new" speicies coming- and going.

But brockton denies the statistical and quantum nature of reality, and the age of the Universe, as well as the existence of the fossil record.
He can perhaps be forgiven for his ignorance of the first two; they are matters of an esoteric nature. But to deny the latter two is to wallow in ignorance indeed.

 

This is not faulty logic. [although you deliberately changed the logic and attributed that to me Sarah!]

This is how Science works.

Nobody claims they can go back in time and absolutely know.

So we have no choice but to Observe, Record, Repeat, Compare.

We are left with 'By this - its the most likely explanation we know of'

You DO NOT look for things 'Man Made'. [I did NOT say that]

You simply look for working, ordered and complex information.
IF it turns out that Intelligent Design is behind these things (whether its man, animal or machine has NO matter)
Then
You DO conclude that - to the best of our knowledge based on facts and observations - then Intelligent Design is the known cause of working ordered information.

Its THAT SIMPLE.

Again... IF you choose to believe otherwise - feel free, however you are basing that on your 'feelings' or 'hopes' and not based on Scientific Investigation.

Please do not deliberately re-arrange my logic so you can create a problem.
Thanks.

 

No. You did not explain when and where viable genetic mutations occur.
Yes. They are required to create a new species. [See. biology 101]

You incorrectly applied the word 'moot' into all that too.

The Fossil record shows Species. Period. Nothing More.

Believing they were morphing one-into-another is entirely your own belief which is based entirely on you own imagination.

You cant 'Deny' the age of the Universe since know one knows (or could know) the age of the Universe.

You know I dont 'Deny' the Fossil Record, and yet you just deliberately stated to others in this forum I do?

Well the age of the Universe has absolutely nothing to do with animals creating new genes inside themselves.

Fortunately I dont deny the fossil record (which is the final nail in the coffin for the 'gradual new genes' believers).

 

The only examples of FACTUAL intelligent design you have given are from man-made objects. Cars, books, etc...And you are trying to use that as a scientific example for creationism. But it is faulty logic. Just because human creations are examples of intelligent design that doesn't mean everything has been created by intelligent design. And we can both agree that there are more things in the universe that haven't been created by humans than those that have. So the only factual creations of "intelligent design" we know of are man-made and a small minority of the things in the universe. The others are just speculation. And just because a small number of man-made things seem to evolve through intelligent design doesn't mean EVERYTHING has.

And besides, I don't know what makes you more qualified than the scientists of history to say that evolution is based on "feelings" and "hopes" rather than scientific theory.

As you can see I didn't misrepresent you. You were using this example of man-made objects to point out that the rest of the world must have sprung forth from intelligent design. It is flawed logic, but the illogical ones don't usually know when they are being illogical...

The "ball in socket" design is here in most surviving animals because it worked, and that animals without it aren't here because they didn't work. It is a pretty simple concept. We use the same basic design for our cars because they work, and the things that don't work wouldn't be productive to use or make. It wouldn't be successful. Just because all life on earth are made from the same basic things doesn't mean that there is some creator behind it. It just means that those things worked. They were successful. And that is why you see life on earth made of those things. Life wouldn't be life here without those elements.

I'm no expert on evolution, but at least I can understand the basic concept. You, on the other hand, twist logic and reality to fit your view of the world. All life being made of the same basic elements in no way is a show of intelligent design. It is a show of the success of those elements, or of a paticular body structure, etc...

And anyone with more knowledge on the subject please correct any misstatements on the subject. I never learned about evolution in school, since I went to a private baptist school. All my knowledge on the subject is pretty elementary. But I see and understand the truth and logic in the theory.

 

Sera..

The ONLY thing you are saying to me is that 'Just because most all working ordered information has Intelligent Design as its cause DOESNT MEAN IT ALWAYS WAS THAT WAY"

WOW!

Great!

Guess what.. Just because water freezes at 0 DOESNT MEAN Water ALWAYS Must have frozen at Zero!

Wow.. guess what - I CLEARLY explained to you that nobody can know FOR ABSOLUTE Certainy what has ALWAYS happened.

Further to that I EXPLAINED TO YOU that we have NO CHOICE but to use the world around us as a 'Control'.
[Unless you know of other dimensions?]

So this is why we say "Based on what we can observe, record and repeat.. TO THE BEST OF OUR KNOWLEDGE... Ordered working information is caused by Intelligent Design.

Dont explain BACK TO ME what i CLEARLY explained to you.

I was NOT using example of man-made objects.
Are you READING??

I was using examples of ORDERED WORKING INFORMATION.

IF it turns out this is usually made by man, birds or machines then IT IS.

If it turns out there ARE NO EXAMPLES OF WORKING ORDERED DESIGN made by RANDOM CHANCE AND CHAOS ...

.. Then SUCK IT UP!

Too bad.. thats where the facts lay.

[Please do not waste more bandwidth with another genius theory stating that "ya.. but it might not always been that way"]