Don´t remain tied, Darwin has lied

Im still trying to pin you down on what fundamentals we agree on Geckopelli:

Do we agree that new genes have never been known to occur in any species?

Do we agree there is no known way by which this can happen?

Please start by confirming your position on these two related questions.
If you dont understand the questions - just IM me and I will simplify them for you?

These are the two important questions.

So far, our leading Scientists do NOT observe new genes being created in any species.
So far, they do not know of a way in which this can happen.

If you disagree with this - please state your reasons why?

 

We agree on nothing- your are tainted by pesuppostion. You seek justifacation for your religious views, not objective Knowledge.

"So far, our leading Scientists do NOT observe new genes being created in any species.
So far, they do not know of a way in which this can happen."

The first part of this statement shows total lack of understanding of the theory of evolution entirely. Aprocess that occurs over many, many generations cannot be observed ver batim by a single individual.

The second part is a flat falsiity- We do, indeed, know how this can happen.
We call it Evolution.

Science in general has accepted biological evolution has a highly probable fact.
Biological organisms adapt to a changing evviroment. That't it.

The petty details are not all worked out; nor have the petty details of the Universe been yet worked out- yet E=MC2 can blow up the world.

In a lab, mutations on genes may indeed be induced through application of radiation.
The earth is, at all times, saturated with raditaion from sources within it'a crust, as well as constantly being bombarded with cosmic rays from etheral sources.

You see, it's not a simple matter depedent up on why frogs grow legs, nor a metter to be check out of hand. Evolution is the ONLY explation for the diversity of life on earth.

 

bumper sticker guy in forest gump said it best "shit happens" and good luck changing a stubborn 16 yr old u guys

 

no one can change anyone

 

The point is not to convince brockton. He's a believer and as such of no interest to me. (On the other hand, if he cares to present a positive case for creationism, that would be interesting indeed!)

The point is to demonstrate to any possible readers that religion is not science, and science is not religion.

Science must be leraned from the ground up; religon purports to contain answers while deploring questions.

 

There is far too much dogma and faith in science for me these days.
I know of many accepted and firmly held scientific theories that are dead wrong, but they cling to them anyway.

 

If by "they" you mean scienec enthusiast- perhaps.

But I'd ask you to state a "firmly held scientific theories that [is] dead wrong".

I know of no such.

 

Nice insult posts as usual...

So you ARE agreeing this has never been observed. Good. We can start there.
We can discuss reasons why its never been observed later .. but for step one - we are agreeing it has NEVER been observed.

You need to write a report and submit it to leading Evolutionists because they will clearly state there is NO KNOWN MECHANISM by which a NEW GENE can spontaneously create itself.

What you just said is - you are so sure it 'must have happened once' that you believe (by faith) that it 'Can Happen'.

You clearly stated this is your logic.

Your making an argument called 'An appeal to Authority (or Majority)'
The problem is - you will change your 'evidence' based on majority opinions?

Latest Surveys show a MAJORITY of Scientists believeing 'Some Type' of Intelligent Design was behind Evolution.
(and these are the EVOLUTIONIST Scientists!)

So your now willing to agree ID is behind life on Earth?

You then tried to change the subject by replacing 'New Genes' with 'Biological Adaptation.
We are not discussing biological adaptation (which involves the LOSS or exchange of ALREADY EXISTING Genes.

Nice try.

I will be happy to ALSO discuss 'biological adaptation' (which includes your nose running during winter or white camoflague hair ALREADY included in an animals genetics.

Until then - we are discussing your belief that new genes spontaneously occur (despite our agreement that this has NEVER been observed and there is no known way by which it can)

Your entitled to believe that the very mechanism for this theory is something 'Petty'.

Your making a good argument AGAINST New Genetic information by Mutation.
Genetics Mutations are indeed observed and heres the conclusion, everytime, without fail:

Genetic Mutations are VIRTUALLY ALWAYS BAD.

The occasional one is Neutral.

So even though mutations are lethal, negative or at best neutral - you continue to think yourself wise to 'believe' they used to be good and helpful?

An Intelligent Designer is on option chosen by many of our leading Scientific investigators.

Clearly you have decided to Close your mind to one thing only.
Good luck with that!

Funny thing though.. a real Scientist once told me that when in his lab, the most 'Scientific' thing he can do is 'accept ANYTHING as being 'possible' - therefore separating his opinion, beliefs or feelings from contaminating the pure, unbiased work.

I guess you would disagree with him.
Thats ok.

 

The theory that is taught which describes the last ice age. Totally ludicrous.
There is a veritable treasure chest of easily accessible evidence that there was a very serious global cataclysm at the time the Mammoths, etc. went extinct.
Yet the gradual, nonthreatening version is still taught. It is BS in the extreme.

 

You are mistaking state of the art for belief. Theories are just that; they are not dogmatic belief.
They roll with the punches or are eventually demolished by factual observation.

The subject is currently a matter of debate between various sciences.

Also, it's a soft science, not a hard one. It cannot be mathematically described.

It's a matter of proabilities.

 

Geckopelli,

Im a little confused why you chose to make personal condemnations and general statements?

we are both agreeing that genetic information exists, and that means it 'appeared' somewhere along the line.

However, you seem to be adamant that it continued to spontaneously appear over and over and over again.

At least Creationists only ask for new genetic information to appear ONCE.
Creationists attribute it to a Cause.

YOU however, believe that New Genetic information is A VERY HIGH PROBABILITY EVENT (in the past) and happens BILLIONS OF TIMES over BILLIONS OF YEARS!!?!

And even more unscientific - you actually believe it happens by CHANCE, WITHOUT any Intelligent Cause.

Wow!

So, what part of your belief is 'Scienctific' again?

Oh.. you mean the part where you believe in things that have never been observed, go contrary to things which are observed, and for which there is absolutely no explanation.

Read my post carefully.
You will see I am very clearly and accurately representing YOUR position.

If you feel 'Insulted' by YOUR position - dont blame me, Im NOT flaming you.

These ARE your beliefs.

 

People, people...

The theory of evolution is very logical, and just as worthy (if not more) of acceptance than the theory of creation. In fact, there are many who accept the theory that still believe in god.

There is nothing wrong with believing the scientific theory of evolution. Anyone who claims there is more evidence of the theory of creation is just blinded by religious bias. And anyone who cliams that the theory of evolution isn't scientific needs to just be laughed at, because they have no idea what they are talking about.

You are never going to get through to people like Brocktoon, who's brains just hit a brick wall when considering an existance without a higher being. He has a habit of twisting the logical and rational to fit his views. What he doesn't realise, though, is it is glaringly obvious to his audience...

The theory and process of evolution is still being studied, worked on, and developed. We learn more about genetics, biology, geology, and the universe every day. This theory, and science in general, allows for us to expand our knoweldge. Encourages us to expand our knowledge.

To me, the theory is more believable than something written down by man thousands of years ago, before we knew even half of what we know today about our biology, our earth, and our universe.

Believe what you want, but don't fool yourself.

 

Brockton,

since you keep trying to apply concepts that don't fit, how about some math?

The difference between all life forms on earth is never greater than a 4% differerantiation.

Now calculate the possible life forms WITHOUT your "new genes".

the answer is mind boggling.

I have repeated that these are all low-probability events, yet you keep trying to put words in my mouth, and worst, credit YOUR assinine statements to me.
When you attempt to assign your beliefs to me- you've clearly lost the debate.

Sera,
Brockton is a deluded dupe of the church. One more casualty.
what he believes is of no account, for it collapses in the face of reality.

But education behooves me to fight the ingnorant decievers that actively try to undermine human progress and knowledge. He isn't the first religious fanatic to drown under an onslaught of facts in this forum. And he won't be the last.

Note that he assume me to be an atheist.

Also note that he is exactly like Bush in his approach. Lies and evasions.

 

You know Evolutionism has failed when you read the previous two posts.
They are nothing more than Assertions followed by personal denouncements.

Has either of them produced any evidence of new genetic information being created in lifeforms.
No.

Has either of them given a mechanism by which this could occur?
No

Geckopelli attempts to sound 'Sciency' by lobbing about some percentages (based on presumptions).

Probably the best analogy might be Mr. Fords Creations.

Observe everything from a Ford Festiva to a Ford F350.

The Fact is - almost all vehicles are made up of the exact same things.
Steel,
Aluminum,
Plastic,
Etc

Doesnt matter if its a Ford Truck or a Ford Go-Cart.

[Heck.. this apply's to almost every vehicle from Submariines to Airplanes]

But further to that... Ford used the same fundamental designs for the Festiva and the Pick-up.
Yes, one is bigger and has different angles of the frame.
But they all have a Chassis.

Its not like Ford was making cars with Chassis, then when a truck was to be built he invented some completely different concept.
"Cant use Chassis.. thats for Cars"

So when you realise that basically ALL lifeforms on Earth are made from the same things, Carbon, Cellulose, etc -
OR
When you see that most everything uses a 'Ball in Socket' for movement...

.. Think about where you have seen this before?

Intelligent Design.

Now for Mr.Geckopellis sake - The Creationist view is that ALL genetic information was created ONCE.
All cominations of this are seen today, descending from that pool.

I realise you believe genetic information has been ADDED Billions of times over billions of years.
Your perfectly entitled to imagine that happened.
So far, there is no known way it could have happened.
In your case, I guess you insist it 'Must' have.
Thats cool.

Just dont blame your beliefs on Science.

 

Evolution stands established as the best available explanation for the diversity of life on earth.

You've been reduced to talking about cars, for Christ sake!

You stand defeated- a unworthy opponent.

Now, on to other matters.

"The Creationist view is that ALL genetic information was created ONCE."

Present some evidence, please.

How was this creation of a very complexed system accomplished without evolution?

But I warn you, if you say "it's in the bible", you'll label yourself an idiot.

 

Here is why:

Because we observe an enormous pool of Working Ordered Information.

We compare that to all know examples of Working Orderd Information.

All others have an Intelligent Designer as their Cause.

Suck on that for a while Gecko

 

Are you saying that because humans have created stuff that must mean some being created humans?

 

So you admit you have NO evidence. Evolution discredits creationism yet again.

Alas, you are, after all, an ignorant blind believer. I guess I was mistaken when I thought I saw a glimmer of hope for you.

Let's make it clear: you equate your childish, unsubstantiated belief that stands without any shred of eveidence whatsoever with the structure of Science which is all of a piece and built of millions of observations over hundreds of years?

Are you really that concieted?
Or merely gullible and unthinking?

 

I believe there is a middle way in this dillema...That is we created ourselves, "The universal consciousness" That our end and our begining is one and the same thing...It all comes from the one thing called "it" that the brains of our current civilisation are trying desperately to uncover...

Somehow we all seem to know instinctively that "it" is within ourselves...

strawpup
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