Beginning veg gardening for cheapos?

Okay, so we've pretty well decided that we'll stay in this house for at least another year when the lease comes up this May. Knowing that, I want to plan on a garden. We've got a great big back yard, all fenced in, but it's very overgrown right now. I was thinking of digging/turning a chunk of it along the back fence line and working with that.

Do you old hands have any advice or links for a newbie who wants to grow food? I'm also very poor and cheap, so if you have any ideas where I'll be able to find free or cheap plants to put in the ground, it would be appreciated.

I'm trying to plan ahead, so I know exactly what I need when the time comes. Also, when should I plan on getting started? I'm in middle Tennessee, near Nashville. Should I start in March? Would that be too late? I'm new to all this!

Thanks a lot in advance for all your help!

 

Something I haven't mentioned lately, you can buy veggie & herb seeds and plants with food stamps.

Check around local stores & see if anyone is having sell-outs of this year's (2006) seeds. They'll still be good next year. Check with other gardeners, see if they have any to spare. Go to the local farmer's market, buy some fresh & ripe veggies that you'll want to grow, then save the seeds. One each tomato, pepper, cucumber, squash, etc. will give you a lot of seeds for very, very little money. And you'll be fairly sure that they'll grow around where you live.

As to when to plant, get to know your local county agent. They're a local, free & expert source of info. They'll probably have planting charts for your area that'll be of great help.

What do you want to grow and how much? How many folks are you going to try to feed?

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

There's just the two of us... I just want to start simple with say, tomatoes, peppers, and maybe some sort of squash. And some herbs would be good. I'd love some sort of lettuce, but I kow nothing about that. If I start from seed in small containers (and since I didn't think of saving seeds from local veggies this year, I'll have to buy some) When do you recommend starting the seeds growing? I'll have to do this outdoors - there's no good place in my house for things to grow without my cats trying to eat them. But I figure if I have a start date in mind, I can work up until then to collect all the things I need. And while I start the plants growing, I can work on turning and preparing my garden bed, right?

I think if I really plan ahead for this, I can actually get it done instead of thinking how nice it would have been! I'm excited!

 

that is what I was going to say. We found seed packets for about a nickle each at a local store. Veggies, herbs & flowers. My dad was really excited, as was my daughter.

But, if there's just the two of you, you may just want to buy a few plants of each type so you don't have tons of veggies that you can't eat. Sometimes little garden stores will sell those pretty cheap. There is a small scale farm near my parents and they will give things away. Say you buy a flat of mixed plants, they will give you some squash seeds or a start of an herb or both. The small places are usually great. Or get a friend to split a pack of seeds with you. That is always fun.

I don't know much about when to start things in your area. We moved from Florida to Arkansas this year, so I am kind of confused about such things myself. :&

Good luck!

 

How do I find and "get to know" my county agent? I can't find anything online to point me in the right direction. :&

 

Starting simple is THE THING to do, and it shows you have good sense. I'd suggest you grow your herbs in containers (flower pots) because they're mostly perennials and that way when you move you can take them with you. Lettuce is very easy to grow and fresh lettuce is so very much better than the store bought "stuff". With lettuce you'll have to buy some seeds, saving seeds from local produce isn't an option. Lettuce comes in two basic forms - head & loose leaf. I'd suggest loose leaf, head type is just too damn hard to grow. With loose leaf you pick a few leaves and then more grows - repeat; so you get a loooong harvest season. The best way to do it is use wide rows and sequential planting.
Further reading:
This one talks about beans, but good general info: http://www.garden.org/foodguide/browse/veggie/beans_planting/450
Another one: http://www.gardenguides.com/TipsandTechniques/widerow.htm
More about wide row planting:
http://solutions.psu.edu/Horticulture_Gardening_Landscaping_391.htm
http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/mg/manual/veg2.htm
http://www.arhomeandgarden.org/fruits_nuts_vegs/Vegetables/small_spaces.htm
All of these talk about 18 to 36 inches wide and broadcasting the seed. I suggest 48 inches wide and only broadcast seed for a few things. More on that if you are interested.

You really need to come up with a way to work around the cat problem. I've never seen cats eat seedlings, but I've never seen the Pyrimids either - and yet I'm sure they exist. The recommended thing to do is to start some, but not all, things indoors 6 to 8 weeks before the last frost date for your area. Then you transplant the seedlings into the garden when it's safe and get a 3 or 4 week head start on when you get tomatoes, peppers, squash, cucumbers, etc. And yes, it's 6 to 8 weeks to get 3 or 4 weeks head start - don't try to make sense out of it... that's just how it works out. If you can't start them indoors (68 to 72 degrees), then don't worry about starting them in containers. Every year I start some things inside, beginning with "early" tomatoes (and a couple other things) in mid to late January. And every year I start some of the same things mid to late March by direct seeding in one of my gardens. I've been at this a long time and I still don't know which is best - well, actually, for me & here, doing both seems best. I think that the starting early, indoors, is more important as you go north. The shorter your growing season, the more important it is to get the early start.

" I can work on turning and preparing my garden bed, right?" Starting the prep work now is in this old garden hippie's opinion the most important thing you can do. Do it NOW. And all winter, turn it again & again. That'll kill weed seeds & various bugs that overwinter in the soil. Start NOW gathering and piling up leaves... can't tell you how important that'll be. Also & seperate - start a compost pile, I know it's November & cold & all - doesn't matter. Start a compost pile (VERY IMPORTANT - nothing from the cats {or dogs,etc., or you} in the pile).

Check these sites:
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/
http://www.utextension.utk.edu/offices/default.asp

You'll sooner or later want (or need) to know your "USDA Zone", find that here: http://www.usna.usda.gov/Hardzone/hzm-se1.html
And what ever you do, check this site: http://mastergardeners.tennessee.edu/

I think you're totally right. And if after talking about it this much you don't do it, you'll be very mad at yourself. Remember, BILLIONS of folks garden, you can do it too. Also remember, it's the journy not just the destination.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

Thanks so much for your help, POD! I'll start tomorrow on clearing out the back yard and figure out what I have to work with. Nothing's been done with it for years - it looks quite unhealthy. I'll mow it all down and plan on exactly where/how big to make the bed. I think putting it in a corner is the best option. Most likely, there will be a 6 foot wood fence on the west side, and another fence overgrown with bushes on the south side. This seems good to me, from what little I do know, because the hot afternoon sun will be more diffused and the plants will get the cooler sunlight in the morning.

I think my USDA zone is 6b. I'm in Lebanon, TN.

As far as the cats go, I might be able to clear up some room in my sewing studio for this project. It's the one room I think I'll be able to close off to them completely. They are absolutely obsessed with eating growing green stuff. In fact, I have a houseplant in that room already, hiding from them after they chewed it to bits. (A friend gave it to me, said it was called a "mother in-law", kind of a spider plant looking thing, and I'm not sure how best to get it healthy again :&) The problem is just going to be with keeping that room warm and still keeping them out of it... Is there anything you know of that I might be able to spray onto the leaves of plants that might deter them from chewing?

I'm checking out those sites you linked to right this minute, and I'll no doubt have more questions soon... Thanks again!

 

Yeah, in late 1979 (after Hurricane Fredrick) I moved from near DeFunick Springs, Fla to near Harrison, Ark. What a shock. In La Florida, if I spit on the ground, a little me would jump up and run off. No so in Arkansas. Plus in Arkansas they had these things in the ground... what was it they called them - Oh yeah, rocks - what's up with that? But "finding the growing season" can be a big challenge in the "Mellow Mountains" (that's what some folks I knew called the Ozarks). I was a little lucky, my mother and brother had been there a few years, so I wasn't starting from scratch. As to when to start things, first I'd ask the folks at the small farm you were talkinfg about. I do this and most other small farmers I know do also, I'm glad to give away plants, seeds etc., but also glad to help, answer questions, stuff like that.

Here's some links that might help.
http://www.uaex.edu/
http://www.uaex.edu/Arkansas/
http://division.uaex.edu/contact/countymap.asp
http://www.arhomeandgarden.org/
http://www.arhomeandgarden.org/master_gardener.htm

I grow a couple varities of commercial blackberries developed by the University of Arkansas, they are a very important part of my farm income.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

How do you mean, "looks quite unhealthy"? If it's over grown with a bunch of weeds, etc., that'd be good, probably.

You're probably right about the sun light. When I was clearing the land for one of my gardens I left about 1/2 the pine trees within the garden area for exactly the reasons you stated, and it's worked out real, real well.

For the cats, heat up (micro wave or stove) about 2 cups of water. Not quite to a boil. Then stir in about two tablespoons of dish soap(if you want to use a little bit of ground hot pepper powder too, that'd be good). After it has cooled (of course) use your fingers to "paint" or smear some on the leaves. I real sure this'll work with the "Mother-in-law's tongue" (picture below)
If you can get some seeds, any kind will do, and try this: This is a test of the cat deterrant system, it is only a test. So when the "real thing" comes along you'll know what works. Start the seeds, get them growing, and hope the cats start eating - yeah, hope they DO. If they do, make a batch of the soapy/pepper mix but much more dilute - like maybe 2 cups water and one teaspoon of soap. Smear it on and see what happens. I've never tried anything on seedlings nor tried to deter cats, but I think this'll work

Here's a couple charts ya'll might find interesting. There are two charts for each Tennesse and Arkansas. Notice that within each chart are two charts. And notice they don't agree. Hell, now I'm confussed. Look at the charts & you'll see what I'm trying to say. That's why I suggest you get in touch with your local county agent, county extension service, or cooperative extension service.

Glad to help... Now, Where did put my corkscrew .....

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

Yeah, it's very overgrown with weeds and such. The "unhealthy" part I was referring to is actually the trees, though. Our backyard has 3 trees in it - one of them looks as if it's been dead for several years, one of them is not too healthy looking, but this is partially due to having a large branch knocked down in a windstorm a couple months ago, and the third looks perfectly fine. I don't know what kind of trees they are, except that they're deciduous, and old enough to have trunks so big around I can barely stretch my arms around them. I've noticed a couple of other trees in our neighborhood that are dead and look the same way - skeletal. Is this something I should be concerned about? I don't know what would cause them to die like this.

It's probably something I should have mentioned sooner, but to be honest I was worried it would mess up my plans and I really don't want it to.

Thanks for the soap idea, I'll try that. And I'll do the seedling experiment, too, just as soon as I get the seeds! I looked up my county agent, and I'll be calling the office first thing Monday morning for recommendations. I'm running around doing everything double-time tonight so I can be sure to have tomorrow just for gardening!

 

Almost no chance the tree problem will effect you. Ask the county agent about soil testing too...

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

I'll ask about soil testing when I call tomorrow. Don't know if anything will come of it, but I put up a freecycle ad asking for any gardening supplies people had extra, lying around. I figure it's worth a shot! (In the meantime, I have a mower , shovel, and rake, and don't figure I'll need much else for this step.)

I've attatched a quick gif I drew up of the layout of my yard as it is. The shed is one of those short little aluminium numbers, pretty rusted and scary looking. The fence to the east is low and wire, and to the west it's a 6-foot privacy fence (the gate is just west of the porch). To the south, we have one of those four-foot wire fences that marks property lines so often. There are some sort of bushes and such on the other side of the fence, overgrown and hanging into our yard. I'll probably end up getting some clippers and cutting them back, but it seems like maybe I should dig the garden a little away from that fence line anyway? I marked off the general area I'm thinking of working with (?) but I'm not sure how big to go. You said 48-inch rows, but I don't know how many to plan for. Or how big to make the wakways. Also, do you recommend making raised beds?

I'm not sure where to put compost, or how best to block it off. Chicken wire? dig a hole? Also, what can I put in it? clippings and rakings, obviously, but what about food-stuff? fruit peels, veggie scraps/cuttings, coffee grounds, any of that?

Some of those wide-row links (which were very helpful and informative, btw) mentioned companion planting. Particularly in two sorts... 1)sowing root crops (carrots and radishes might be nice?) in along with others, so as they are harvested they aerate the roots of the other plants and 2) planting flowers like marigolds and zinnias for "organic pest control". Bugs are one thing I've wondered about, since I really don't want to use pesticides or anything. Do you have any recommendations or do's-and-dont's for companion planting? Am I getting way ahead of myself here?

I've probably asked enough for now, lol! I'll go out there and get back to work.

 

As to the 4 foot tall fence, remember next summer the sun will be a lot higher in the sky. I'm working on a drawing to show some things about wide row planting. I use 48 inches because that way from the path on either side I only have to reach in 2 feet to get to stuff in the middle. I use 24 inch paths, mostly because I have an 8 hoursepower Troy-built tiller that is 2 feet wide. That makes keeping the path under control very easy. If your mower is a small push mower, I'd suggest you make the paths as wide as it is... saves work.
I'll find some more complete compost info, but for now - not a hole, no meat/fat/bone/etc., no cat "droppings", "fruit peels, veggie scraps/cuttings, coffee grounds, any of that?" - all of that, tea bags & egg shells, even hair, grass clippings and lots of leaves. A chicken wire inclosure is good, but not necessary. A lot of folks just simply make a pile on the ground. I go very far overboard, but then when it comes to compost, I'm not ashamed to admit I'm totally anal, plus my little farm is what I do for a living. I advise against raised beds, they're a lot of work and can be some expense. They are more of a permanent, settled down, long term type thing. And then mostly to imporve drainage and/or can of use in harsh climates. I don't use them because I have great drainage & they'd be hard to do and use the tiller too.
For me, carrots are a pain in the _________ (fill in with anywhere you don't want a pain - this time I choose eye). You need really good soil, not just healthy but deeply dug & loose. Radishs are totally great & may be the easiest (and quickest) thing to grow... and don't forget, radish tops (i.e.: leaves) are great in salad.
By all means, plant flowers - as many as you can - they provide homes for benificial insects & alternate food for bad bugs. I don't go overboard on killing bad bugs, without them there'd be no population of good bugs. Control, not eliminate.
And no, you aren't getting ahead of yourself. In this old hippie's opinion, the better you plan a garden (or pretty much anything) the better the chance for a good out come.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

m'kay, that all makes sense with the compost. The weather's been really nice here yesterday and today, so I'll be going back out there to get more done. (There's no shortage!) I've been mowing long grass, but my mower just spits the clippings out the other side. So when I finish I guess I'll do my best to rake it all up in a pile (along with all the fallen leaves) to start the compost. The best place I can think of from what I know is in the SW corner where the two fences meet, since I'm thinking of leaving space between the south fence and the garden. That way the garden won't be taken over or suffocated by the bushes from across the fence (which I still need to clip back). And the compost will be out-of-the-way, but still handy to the garden. The variable I'm not sure about, is it okay to put compost in a corner? Would that mess with air circulation and the composting process? I'll probably have to come up with something to block off the compost, as well as some sort of low fencing to put around the garden. I have dogs, after all! But by this afternoon I should have the yard tamed and the compost started - and I've already pulled out an old coffee can to collect kitchen scraps with.

I'm still unsure just how large an area I should dig, but I guess I'll figure it out. It'll take me a while in any case, with just a shovel. You mentioned having to dig deep for carrots, and that made me think - how deeply should I dig? I haven't started this step yet, but I pretty much just planned on going as deep as the shovel, and keeping that loose over the winter, then before I plant anything I can add some compost and whatever else is recommended when I get the soil test....

Okay, 'nuff talk, I'm going to work.

 

If you want to do the get-started digging really, really right, here's how:
http://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profiles0105/double_digging.asp

For good compost info check this site:
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1189.html
Pay close attention to what it says about turning the pile - very, very important.

The length of the rows is limited by the space available. If you had lots of space you'd need to limit them to a reasonable length so you don't spend too much time walking. Mine are 48 feet long - why 48 (and not for instance 50 feet) is a long story.

Here's a little drawing that may help. The 2 feet wide strips are paths, the 4 feet wide are for planting. I drew it to scale, but I don't know how it'll come out after posting. The 2 foot paths around the outside are minimums. When you're digging, don't dig up where the paths will be. Keeping that soil compacted will make the areas where the plants will be act a little like a flower pot... hope that makes sense.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

Groovy - well, I'm doing great so far. The yard is cleaned up most of the way, the compost is started, against the west fence and about 10 feet or so from the south fence. I also cleaned all p around the fire pit, which hasn't been used for quite a long time from the looks of it. The whole yard will look much better once I burn some of the wood clutter. The compost pile should look quite respectable once I have it all raked in (this is making me really wish for a wheel-barrow...)

The double-digging article is very helpful and great description. A couple of points I want to clarify though... Since this whole area currently has grass/weeds growing all over it, should I first scrape up the top layer? Or should I just trn it and hack it up or something? It seems like if I started like the article said from this point, I'd just leave all that grass still growing. Also, I won't be able to do this digging until after Friday, since right now I don't have either a spade OR a fork. But I should have the compost going by tongiht. Still. it doesn't seem like that's long enough to use as the organic material to be stirred with the beds. Should I by a bag of something to mix with the dirt?

As far as the rows go, I think I'm going to limit it to 2, and plan for about 14'. I'm just not sure how long I should plan them. How much could I grow with two 20-foot rows? I'm not sure how much space each plant will need or anything. For that matter, I don't really know how many plants of each variety I want. Of course, I have friends to share extra with so I'd rather have too much than not enough.

Back to work, back to work. Thanks again for all your help!

 

Don't scrape it, just turn it so the grass that was pointing up, is pointing down. The grass and it's roots will do wonderful things for the soil and improve what's called tilth
[ http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=tilth ]

The 20 foot length is great. I'm working on some scaled drawings for planting spacing suggestions. I'm trying to get it big enough to make sense and be readable and still be able to post it. So far I have 72 bean plants, 12 sweet (bell) peppers, 12 hot (cayanne or jalapeno) peppers and 8 tomato plants. And, oh yeah, that's just one of the 20 foot beds. Haven't started on the other one yet.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

 

Goody goody. I'm so excited. I know I'm going to follow through with this, because I've already done more gardening than I have in years, since I lived with my parents ten years ago, and the more tired and sore I get the more I want to keep going!

Wow, that's going to be a lot of food for 20 feet. We won't be going hungry! Maybe I can even figure a good canning or drying system by that time also. As far as growing beans - I've never done that before. I'm totally unsure how to even utilize fresh beans from a garden. :& I guess a lot depends on what variety of bean it is. And with all those plants, I'm sure I can get a few varieties in there... The plants you mentioned sound great. Besides those, I'm interested in lettuce, zucchini, radishes, garlic, onion... And oh, I'm sure there's more but I can't seem to think of them now. And flowers in with all the rest. And herbs, of course, though as you said before I'll probably want to keep those in pots.

Are all of these plants that I'll want to start from seed in January? Or would some of them be better off starting later, or directly in the ground? Oh boy, I'd better try and get some rest so I can keep going tomorrow!

 

btw - I'm not sure whether these root veg's are even possible with such a set up, I don't really know anything about onion and garlic, but it just occurred to me to ask about sweet potatoes also. (Or regular potatoes, but sweet would be better!) I'll look it up now that I'm thinking about it, but it seems like they might need more room to spread out and such? Will my double-digging help with root crops?

Edit: Oh, wowee! I just made a call to the county agent's office, and after asking about a soil test and getting that info, I was connected to the local director guy to ask if he knew a place to get free/cheap seeds. This guy is soooo wonderfully nice and awesome, he talked to me for 15 minutes, figuring what I have planned, what I have to work with, and what I need right now. When he found out I don't hae any transportation today, he offered to come out to my house and take the soil sample for me, and take a look at what I've got to work with and everything. Thank you so much for urging me to connect with these guys - they are wonderful! He'll be coming out in an hour and a half, and oh yeah, he even said he can hook me up with some tools I need on loan for a time to make sure I get going. Wow!

 

Today I'm "on the run", only time for a short note: I think fresh home grown potatoes are better to grow than even tomatoes. The reason is fresh tomatoes are common at any farmers market, but not potatoes. There is no way to describe how much better they are than even the best grocery stores offer. Here are a couple articles on an EASY way to grow them:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic_Gardening/2003_December_January/Sowing_Spuds Look toward the bottom of the article look for: Surface-Sown, No-Dig Spuds- it's a technique popularized by Ruth Stout in her book "Gardening Without Work"
Also from Mother Earth News:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Orga.../Dorothy_Johns_s__Lazy_Way__to_Raise_Potatoes

If there is anything better than home grown potatoes, it's home grown sweet potatoes, and the nutrition value is close it impossible to match. But the sweetness... I swear to you, my mouth is actually watering. Seconds after harvest - Yes, SECONDS - the sugars begin turning into starchs (just as with corn) and it's a fast conversion. Small, fresh sweet potatoes are just simply candy. I don't know if they'll grow in straw (or leaves) like regular potatoes, but I think so. Here's a couple articles, pay special attention to the nutritional info.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organic_Gardening/1988_November_December/About_Sweet_Potatoes
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato

Got to go now. I've been cooking all day and tonight I'm having dinner with (well, serving dinner to) a bunch of single women. They range in age from 77 to 94 years old & live in an assisted living complex. Ham, green bean casarole, potatoes au gratin, cooked apples with cinnimon, salad, rolls, cake, tea... busy day.
Tommorow, it's red beans and rice, salad, rolls etc for lunch at a homeless shelter. All these folks get a lot of attention at Thanksgiving, but then there's a big let down. Doing these things now, when it's not a holiday, really seems to help, sure hope so. I'll have more time tomorrow evening.

Peace,
poor_old_dad

PS: Can there be a better job than being a county agent? A LOT of folks think they're there to help only folks lwith hundreds of acres, not true - you're finding that out. Also, decades ago, if you mentioned "Organic Gardening" to them they made a face as thought they'd just stepped in something. Not any more.