been considering atheism...

I've been considering becoming an atheist. The main reason is because as of late most times when I hear another wiccan (not all other pagans) open their mouths I am astounded at the stupid shit that comes rolling out. It floors me that so many wiccans can be so embarrasing.
As an example, on another forum I frequent there is a group of deluded individuals that argue wicca is a monotheistic religion, because the goddess and god are often combined into some mysterious force called "the one". What a load of bullshit! I think this was made up by people who can't let go of their christian baggage, or those that watch "The Craft" for spiritual guidence. Anyone who belives this and calls themselves wiccan should be slapped very, very hard.
Another example is all the posers that listen to heavy metal, wear very large penticles (and nothing but black clothing with lots, and lots of chains) telling anyone who will listen about how wiccan and evil they are. And about how they like to cast dark spells at midnight while listening to "cradle of filth" so the world can marvel at their spoooooooooky powers. Yet when asked they can't name a single sabat. All they do they do for shock value, yet they keep assocating themselves with wicca.
There are a lot more types out there that are just as bad or worse. Like the dopes that can't stop quoting Silver Ravenwolf and saying "Never again the burning times!". Complaining about how persecuted we are by the public, and how wicca is an ancient religion that predates christianity.
These people are an embarassment to my religion and myself. It's been a long time since I have talked to a wiccan in the real world that isn't full of it and living in some fantasy land where faries and goblins exist (for them at least).
I desperatly want to find sensable, down to earth wiccans that I can relate to. People who care about the actual history and practices of wicca. Those who follow wicca because it acturatly reflects their beliefs, not because it's fashionable. I know they exist, but despite my best efforts I can't seem to find any.


P.S. I havn't ruled out the possibility that I am an intollerant asshole... yet.

UPDATE MAY 14, 2007
ATTENTION EVERYONE READING THIS!!! I AM NOT REALLY CONSIDERING ATHEISM AS A VIABLE OPTION, I WAS JUST FED UP WITH THE LOCAL PAGAN COMMUNITY IN MY TOWN! PLEASE STOP ARGUING ATHEISM WITH ME! I AM NOT AN ATHEIST, NOR DO I PLAN ON BECOMING ONE. IT WAS SOMETHING I LOOKED INTO FIVE MONTHS AGO, THEN DECIDED IT WAS NOT FOR ME. AGAIN, PLEASE STOP ARGUING ATHEISM WITH ME IN THIS THREAD OR IN PM'S!

 

Well if you're an intollerant asshole then I am too.

Not sure if I can be much help, as a recovering neo-wiccan. The fluffy crap doesn't help; but it was mostly I found the tennants, such as they are, incompatable with my existing ideas.

There are sane sensible wiccans out there ('wicca for the rest of us', 'obsidian mirror', various livejournal communities), minority though they may be, so that's encouraging.

 

Can you really deny that we are all one? That doesn't seem silly to me. Man & woman are connected spititually & sexually & become one as a couple. People are individuals, yet come together in society. We are on this planet, but also a piece of the starlit universe...so why not the god & the goddess?

Also, disconcern yourself with what you call "poser" pagans, they are just finding themselves as we all are. Whether or not they stay on that path is of their concern. People are fucking hilarious in general, despite their interests at the time.

I am not pressing anything on you, but to accept atheism is to deny a piece of yourself. In all this confusion you should consider deeper reflection rather than sticking it to some man.

On the side, I see people who share my interests all the time who are idiots; it doesn't have to do with their interests that makes them idiots, people do stupid just fine on their own.

&, like you have also mentioned, there are ALWAYS going to be "embarassments" in whatever spiritual philosophy you relate to. There are always weirdos, but without weirdos we'd be this strange gray color, & that just ain't great for paintin'...

Finally, remember that whatever it is your heart/mind feels that you don't need to label yourself. Takes pieces from all religions/philosophies to grow. If you say, "woah, that's freaky"...it's not for you, but if you like elements of Paganism, then you certainly shouldn't deny THOSE aspects.

Just don't say screw it to everything too early. Just get your own vibe rollin'.

Best of luck in whatever you choose & be strong in your choices.
I mean, I'm a chick & some chicks are just idiots, but does that mean I need a sex change operation? HELL NO! Haha.

I'll leave you with that odd analogy...

 

Can't say I disagree with the OP, but instead of wanting to become an atheist, it's made me a stronger and more informed Pagan. Oh by the way I am using the word Pagan in its loosest sense.

Look - you can't let other people drag you down. Here is something I realized recently about what is wrong, and warning this might be long:

The vast majority of people in ANY religion do not research their own religion very heavily. In fact most people don't research ANYTHING heavily. To all of us heavy readers out there, how many strange looks do you get when people find out you are reading for pleasure and not because of school or work?

That being said, I think that Paganism has a higher ratio of people doing research in their own religion. This is not to say we are inherently smarter (although I'd like to think so), but since we don't have very many good teachers and certainly very few visionaries, then we are kind of forced to do the work ourselves. We don't have the luxury of having a 700 Club to tell us how to think.

Now even though we have a higher ratio, there are still many Pagans out there who are simply into it because of shock value or because it just makes them feel good. The shock value crowd usually move on when they get older. The "feel good" crowd may not have the solid theological or historical knowledge behind them, but then again who are we to say this is wrong? So I'll leave them alone because they are happy and it doesn't hurt anyone.

This leaves us with the reading crowd. Well we have a big big problem here. In my opinion, about 90% of the books one finds in physical stores and the like are for beginners. I wouldn't trust them for anything other than getting someone to understand very broad concepts. My teacher never recommended hardly any modern books. In fact when someone asked him what books were good for learning Paganism, he would tell them to read Timeus by Platn top of all this many people who will teach beginners are little better than their students.

So where does this leave us?
- You can't condemn someone who derives pleasure from worshipping the gods. That is perfectly valid.
- It's not productive to deride younger people who listed to death metal, wear black, and wear pentagrams. They will probably grow tired of Paganism because of the crappy books out there, and MAYBE they may grow up to be more informed than all of us. Who knows?

The best thing we can do is learn as much as we can and place our expertise behind the knowledge. Hopefully there will be a few of us who can help other Pagans grow. And when we have lots of good strong Pagans, then there will eventually be better teachers and role models. This is MY goal at least.

 

Welcome to Chapel Perilous.

It's a common phase, especially for those who live in area's of organized pagan groups. Now is the time for you to reflect what motivates yourself as a pagan and screw all the others. What does this relfex of turning to Atheism as a reaction to fluffy bunnies or trendies mean?


And very nicely said, Enlil6

 

Hey I came from an organized Pagan group and I'm not bitter! Of course I had the best teacher ever.

 

Thanks for your positive responces everyone. I figured I'd set myself up for some flammage, but I guess not. I think I was being overwhelmed by the stupidity of others. It is the most prevelent element in the universe after all. It's not the first time and I'm sure not the last. (Low blood sugar may also have been a contributing facter.) But I think I've pulled myself out of my slump. I did a seasonal cleaning of my alter and meditated on my core beliefs for a while. It helped a lot.

 

If you become atheist because of idiot wiccans, then you are a far bigger idiot than they.

Get in the woods...forget them...and find the divine.

 

Too true.

 

If you're really ready to throw in the towel I'd suggest you investigate Taoism before you give up. Lots of the same elements (the thoughts, not the details), and all the Taoists I've met online seem to be very levelheaded. (BTW, I'm not a Taoist nor promoting it, it just sounds from your post that you might find something of use in it).

Bear in mind that there is both philosophical Tao, and religious Tao (the latter replete with magic, spells, mantras, alchemy and more). Please don't think, as many do, that the Tao Te Ching and the I Ching are the sum total of Taoism, that's just a small part of the writings and beliefs.

And any way, best wishes!

 

What are you complaining about???? stupidity? I'm Christian! LOL
deal with that ahhhh!!! think of my pain lol
God bless

 

If you're 'considering' a hold on all belief on anything spiritual and all deities, you're probably more along the lines of agnostic.

Atheism isn't a wishy-washy position...nor is Theism. As far as definition goes, they're black and white...not a lot of room to consider the high points of each. Either you believe, or not.

 

This thread is still alive? That's ok folks, I'm over my spiritual ferustrations. I found a intelligent group of pagans to commune with. No one else need post in here.

 

Unless you really feel the need to, that is.

:beatdeadh

 

i hope that's not a real horse

 

Oh but it is!

 

:beatdeadh :beatdeadh :beatdeadh YEAH, BEAT THAT SUCKER!!!

 

woah. for once i actually agree with heron. maybe i better lie down, i might not be feeling to well... (j/k)

unfortunately, no religion, philosophy or belief system is safe from fundamentalists and idiots. not even atheism. i have a close friend who is an atheist and he drives me up a wall, because he is so closed minded and simplistic in his beliefs. when someone chooses the non-faith of atheism as a reaction to the failings of other religions, or defines themselves spiritually based on negatives (what they aren't what they don't believe, what they're against) rather than positives (who they are, what they do believe, what is important to them) then they are truly thrown out of balance. i can see no good that comes from constant resistance.

the atheism i am familiar with ("fundamentalist" atheism, unfortunately) is based entirely on refuting a very narrow, specifically defined, global "fringe" minority view of God and "debunking" it for the purpose of proving intellectual superiority. um, yeah...well, i guess if that's really your thing, you go have a nice time with it. i myself, however, have a life, and quite frankly don't give a fat damn what other people believe, and so i'm sure as hell not going to waste my time or attention orienting my entire worldview refuting it in order to be "smarter" or "better". for that reason, atheism has never been something that flies with me.

so there isn't a leteral, anthropomorphic old bearded white dude sitting on a cloud hurling thunderbolts, big whoop! does that rather stupidly obvious fact disprove the existence of grace and order in the universe? does that make god a false belief? i can say, "my love is like a red, red rose" even though he doesn't literally have petals, thorns, and occaisional problems with aphids. and yet it might not necessarly be a false statement. perhaps there is only one Truth, but there are many truths, many levels of reality understanding and experiencing that Truth, through the smaller truths.

religions are languages, expressing a Greater Truth. they are not the Truth itself. Truth is not found in the petty details, in the words, in the formulas. It is found in the conscious understanding. do you grok? in that light, God becomes a verb, a state of awareness, harmony, bliss, not some separate, isolated entity that chooses sides. with this awareness comes the realization that fighting over or rufuting religion in the name of "truth" is really counter-productive.

 

I would almost totaly disagree with your above statment. I find that true atheism is an admerable stance. It is not simply nay-saying religion, but a thoughtful and intelligent belief. It is based on science and history. There is absolutly no proof of divinity. Period. I'm talking about proof that we can all agree on, not someone's personal experiences. So the athiest stance is kind of a "show me" mentality. Not my personal prefrence, but a position I can respect. Personaly I think it takes some of the mystery and wonder out of life. I like a little fantasy in my reality.

 

have you defined divinity, though? how can you proove or disprove anything if you haven't defined it? a philosophy based on refuting something must have an agreed upon definition of what it is refuting specifically, otherwise, yes, it is just nay-saying.

i have never heard an atheist argument against divinity as a state of consciousness. all the atheist arguments i've heard define the sacred as an external entity, which doesn't apply to many smaller faiths and even a couple of major world religions.