Babylon Must Fall!!!!

I would've thought it would be obvious to most people who visit these boards that our current society is unsustainable. Pollution, if it continues unchecked, will lead to the extinction of many species and great damage to the eco-system - possibly resulting in the world becoming uninhabitable for humans. Population growth can not continue forever at this rate without space and resources eventually running out (simple maths, really). Oil is possibly the most damning factor though. We depend on oil in many walks of life, not just for fuel. Worst case scenarios predict oil running out within twenty years, although optimistic projections suggest that we may have over a century of oil production left. In either instance though, the real threat to the global economy comes not when oil runs out, but when production peaks. That is to say once the global demand for oil overtakes the amount of oil that we can produce, then a crippling global recession and economic decline are inevitable - unless we come up with an alternative.

And that leads me nicely into my question. What do you see for the future of the planet? Will society fall? Will global capitalism collapse in on itself? If so, where do we go from there? Do you believe that we can experience a smooth transition into some sort of eco-utopian ideal, where alternative fuels replace our dependence on oil and other polluting technologies? How will we address the population explosion? If capitalism collapses, what will happen to technology? Will we go back to living in villages? How's that possible with such a large population? Is technology inherently evil, or can it be adapted to serve us in a positive way? What's to stop us from repeating the same mistakes again? Where, in short, do you believe humanity will be, say, 100 years from now?

 

well i hope jesus would have come back by then

 

OK, answers that don't involve blind hope in the divine, please......

 

global capitalism wont collapse even if currency systems fall people will still trade and make deals

you could use cigarettes as currency or bars of chocolate or old boots

 

*raised eyebrow*

 

I agree. I think that capitalism, in it's basic form, is part of human nature. Even if the economy disappeared, I think we'd soon start bartering and exchanging goods, which puts us right back on the road to where we came from. So are we doomed to repeat our mistakes, or can we make capitalism work for our good?

 

If you define capitalism as narrowly as any system of bartering or trade then there is nothing other than capitalism. The term stands for a far more advanced system in which all capital and means of production are privately rather than publicly owned.

 

you can improve the way capitalism works for example old style slavery was made illegal when it was still a pretty profitable business

and I suppose could still be pretty profitable but most people think its unethical so it was stopped

capitalism gives a lot of choice to the individual you dont have to buy lots of throw away things
you dont have to buy stuff from companys you dont think are ethical

 

So how do we get to a stage where capitalism is non-polluting, non-exploitative, and working for the benefit of all? And do we need to reduce consumerism, seeing as natural resources are limited? How do we achieve this within a capitalist framework?

 

if people wanted to and they could make it work they could set up co-operatives to control the means of production .

generally these dont seem to work that well or last ,if they did that would be fine I dont think there is anyone stopping people setting up this kind of thing.

 

So how do we get to a stage where capitalism is non-polluting, non-exploitative, and working for the benefit of all? And do we need to reduce consumerism, seeing as natural resources are limited? How do we achieve this within a capitalist framework?

its tricky as if you are in business you want to sell things but its up to the people that buy things whether a thing is sold
encourage people to buy less you will be working against advertising to get people to buy stuff but again its up to the people whether they do or not

also complain when you see things like to much packaging buy smaller cars or no car at all

it is a tricky problem but I dont think that taking over the means of production and telling people what they can have works either

 

Agreed. But I don't thnk that relying on people's better natures works either. Which is why I wonder how we're ever going to achieve a better society before things fall apart. And also whether if things fall apart, we can avoid making the same mistakes again. Personally, I can't see any simple answers.

 

An entrenched system of global political power based solely upon the idea of private ownership is what stops this from happening. It is (possibly) a viable alternative to capitalism, although not in the Marxist-Leninist model as evidenced by the USSR and China. I doubt any alternative to global capitalism could come about in any meaningful or practical way unless capitalism itself collapses and people start again from the ground up.

On the wider issue of what will actually happen over the next 100 years given the current situation, it's almost impossible to guess because there is no historical precedent for such a large scale potential energy / environmental crisis. Perhaps we can learn about what might happen from the example of past civilisations which have collapsed but I don't know enough to make any valuable comparisons.

Capitalism won't come crashing down until the very last (if at all), because those who own all the capital and control the means of production also have all the political power - their interests dictate the direction "democracies" take, not the interests of the people.

Technology for harnessing sustainable energy sources might improve and governments might make the right decisions regarding investment in this process before the energy slump comes. But given our historical political short-termism, the apparent paucity of fossil energy reserves and the predicted growth in demand, I doubt this will happen at the level needed until it is too late to make the change without serious global repercussions. More likely is that there will be more global oil wars, energy prices will soar and those few who have (or win) the ability to control the earth's remaining energy reserves will continue to live prosperously while the rest of the world's population continues to get poorer, and becomes entirely in thrall to the interests of those who control energy.

 

It's all looking really bleak then really if this is the way it goes, and I think based on human nature that's pretty likely.

I have no idea what the future holds in store but it is in the hands of humanity and I guess that's the scary thing. Nothing can change for the better while people behave in the way in which they do, and the majority of that behaviour is dominated by pure selfishness and greed. But is this a fundamental part of human nature for it's own survival? I think the only way for us to secure a future is to raise everyone's consciousness to a level of selflessness and I think we'll be doomed long before then.

On the other hand we could all be saved by an alien race of higher beings.......

 

Or Jesus. Or both. Or are they the same?!?

 

They may well be.....or......maybe Jesus was beamed up by a higher race and they're gonna deliver him back to us?

 

*cough* I think you'll find he's already here... not saying I am Jesus or anything, but... between us...

 

Unlikely in the extreme, considering we're not likely to even make it as far as mars within the next 20 yrs. And what are we going to be using for fuel in the meantime, when the oil runs out?

 

oil is being made all the time if you think about it. it was originally made by dead animals and plants being crushed. well, animals and plants have been dying since time began, so the process must still be continuing right?

 

Indeed it is! The bad news is that it takes millions of years...........