Atheism and Prayers

I mentioned something about praying for people in the last thread and a couple of them became offended because of it. This baffled me for a few reasons...

1. If you don't believe in God it's not really happening anyway right?

2. If it's well wishing and not condescending <sp?> why would it offend anyone? If for instance a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist prayed for me...Why would I freak? I mean whether you believe what they believe they want well for you.

3. Self Control made the argument that if I pray for him I'm somehow trying to take recognition if he has a good day...Seriously...Dude...C'mon...Dude...STRETCH

4. There's "secular" forms of well wishing. Have a good evening, good morning, good luck etc. Are these people evil minions trying to rule your very life as well?

 

The question is not whether your "secular" forms of well wishing is good or bad.

The question is:

To whom are you praying to?

Obviously, god is quite capable of making decisions as to how to run the universe without waiting to hold a conference with you and discuss with you the matter at hand.

 

can i just start off by saying ive not got a problem with it, i think its pretty nice, like wishing smeone good luck and that.

on the other hand, i CAN see why it would upset some.

it could be seen as condescending: like you need help from MY god, to stop yourself from impaling yourself on your own shoes, retards!

also if you say good morning there is no attached obligation to a series of conventions you have previously rejected.if you pray for them, there is. To many atheists, this is like having your ear canals raped by a man in a sandpaper condom.

also, you cant deny that you had already created a bit of ill will on that thread, mate lol

 

There is nothing wrong with wishing someone good luck. But when you tell someone you are going to spend some time communicating with your illusion higher consciousness... It is definitely condescending.

The most miserable, oppressive, horrific locations in this world are also the most religious. What good is all their prayers doing? Nothing!! If they used their payer time for something more constructive, actually got off their knees and did anything at all to make their lives better, they'd be better off. In fact it is religion (organized ignorance) that is behind a lot of the misery and oppression in these areas. In this perspective, the more you pray adversely affects the quality of your life. Prayer is a curse.

Knowing this, to pray for me is nothing more than an insult.

 

Very good post, relaxxx. I agree.

To pray and offer well wishes towards others is one thing.

However, thinking that prayer alone will solve the world's problems is another.

For example, if the Muslims who pray four times a day spent a larger amount of their time figuring out how to deal with global issues such as starvation, poverty and disease, perhaps, we would have a much better world.

The same is true for Christians and for other religious folks.
Science discovers the cure for disease, not prayers.

At best, prayers only provide some sort of inspiration, or another form of delusion.

 

Relaxxx, the most religious places aren't always the worse. That's absolute nonsense. There's been terribly secular places to live that totally suck. Tons of countries in the former Soviet Union come to mind. Also, there's a lot of countries (USA) for example where a large majority of people buy into the "God" illusion yet they live life much richer than most. So, I contend that your theory of blaming prayer is baseless in every sense.

 

When and where did I say prayer solves every problem? Never once in this thread did I say that. My question is why it's offensive to Atheists. Because they think people who are starving should be doing what they say and it will stop the starvation? That's refreshing. LOL

 

you didn't. he didn't say you did either.

it is, however, implied by your theology. god is omnipotent-praying to him means that he does things for you. therefore, by praying, you are able to solve any problem.

only that doesn't seem to work.

 

America in general in not nearly as religious as some other developing countries. Still I continue to hear news stories of religious people who let their kids die from common ailments because they chose to pray rather than see a doctor. How much abuse goes unpunished and overlooked because families choose to pray than seek real help? I have watched religious family members slowly kill themselves. We have buried a chain smoking addict who I remember saying "God will take me when it's my time..." as their excuse to not quit smoking. Religion is such a blatant crutch for ignorance and denial it is sickening!

Countries like Russia and North Korea are just as bad with their cult of personality religions. They simply replace worship of a God for worship of a man, everything else is essentially the same.

 

Nope, sorry that's a cop out. You said countries that put strong emphasis on religion are worse off. Countries with a largely atheist ideology can be just as bad. Ask anyone who lived in the former Soviet Union. A lot of people don't describe mainland China as a delight either. Did I mention the warmonger is sexy? I'm against the war. But, she is sexy!

 

To me, this discussion sounds like a variant of the argument over Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays that rages every winter. I use them both interchangeably, and sometimes piss people off on both sides (unintentionaly, of course). If I'm pretty sure a person is a Christian, I'll do "Merry Christmas" & if I'm not, I go with "Happy Holidays". The basic idea is to give them a greeting and share the good cheer of the season. To make it an issue seems to me to be beyond absurd, the equivalent of "Bah, Humbug"! If I know I'm dealing with atheists, I pretty well figure that to talk to them about prayer could piss them off, so I tend to avoid it.

 

actually, that's a common misconception. prayer is to be utilized for self-growth, and a way to realizing one's maximum potential, not as some check-off list to give to santa.

 

Uhm, "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays" are not prayers.

And conversely, a prayer is not merely saying "Merry Christmas", "Happy Holidays".

I think you have it all mixed up.

 

Very good post, Neodude.
Thank you.

 

to deliberately misrepresent agnosticism as athiesm, IS fanatacism.

you don't need a street address and a mug shot, of big, friendly and invisible to hug and be hugged by it.

=^^=
.../\...

 

Cop out? Did I not explain Cult of personality? Thought I did... Yup, I did!
These countries are athiest for all the wrong reasons. Worshipping and blindly following a man IS a religion.

She's got nice legs, I'll give her that. Not too bright in the head but nice legs!

 

I am an athiest, and i don't like it when people tell me they'll pray for me, at least on a first-reaction basis. The fact that someone is willing to pray for you is kindof nice, it's a good thing to have someone who cares enough to put aside some time of their day to think about you, and for the sake of social unity and the emotional state of others, i don't complain.
Prayer can be useful on some level, and even i pray from time to time. I'm expanding the normal definition of prayer to include all meditation, spell-craft, chanting, mantras etc.. any focusing of thought and energy around a stated goal.

however, when people say ' i'll pray for you', there usuallly is a subtext of " i'm worried about you, and i can't talk to you, so i'll talk to my invisible friend about you".
That kindof sucks, and is, i think, counterproductive for communication and growth.

 

Very good post, Eugene, I agree.

That's the trouble I find with religious people, particularly these christians.

They have that "holier than thou" air which is condescending, as if others are totally incapable of helping themselves or figuring out what to do with their own lives, that the only way to get their lives straightened out is for some kind of "divine intervention" involving these christians, somehow acting as intermediary.

It's total bullshit and the only use for this kind of nonsense that christians and religious folks somehow need to exert a sense of control on others, in order to manipulate them.

 

Uhm, I know that. Once again you ignore the punchline and pick at the periphery. I think the issues are similar, as I said in my post. The closing words were:"If I know I'm dealing with atheists, I pretty well figure that to talk to them about prayer could piss them off, so I tend to avoid it." Do you want to take issue with that?

 

I understand what you're saying Eugene. Like you're SO screwed up I'll pray for you. We (people in the atheist/agnostic forum) had tense moments in the last conversation. But, the prayer was one of fortune. I was taught when you're in a tense situation pray for someone to prosper in life and you'll feel better. It gets the negative feelings out. It works. I'm sure there's a psychological explanation to how and why.

I can tell you if I was to pray an "I'm right and you're wrong prayer"...Those feelings would've likely been intensified.