A question for you pro-war people on here

Look man, let us all speak logically about this war, free from the blindness of our own passions about it. Peace

 

you can not.

 

I would think you may be right that you cant be a hippy and support any war that would include world war two .

what it seems is a lot of people who are "anti war "feel its ok for jihadists to kill people .
you got the same thing in vietnam the anti war people wernt anti war just anti the western side of the war .

I went to 4 anti war demos in london if they were truely anti war you wouldnt have people walking about with placards for islamic jihad and hamas and hezbollah.

 

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Jonny

Are you saying that because some Islamic fundamentalists are anti-war in Iraq then everyone who is anti-war must support Islamic fundamentalism? I saw something on some US white supremacists being pro the war in Iraq does that mean all people who are pro-war support white supremacy?

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yes he does. He has issues about Islam and he likes to generalize what fundementalist idiots do to all Muslims. It's like generalizing the feudal inquisiting courts' mental structure to all Christians.

Easy to manipulate and effective on undereducated minds.

 

I'm here on the Hip-Forums because I like to hear what everyone has to say, if everyone in the world thought like me the world would suck, and if everyone thought like you the world would also suck.

 

Well I thought brutal regimes like Saddam Husseins' would be the lefts worst nightmare! You wouldn't be able to run a website like this in Iraq under Saddams' brutal rule would you? And our troops over in Iraq are fighting to establish a democratic government in Iraq surely something leftist hippies would agree was good thing.

As for the whole war on terrorism, I would also think that leftist hippies would loathe the Islamic, fundamentalist, killers of Al Qaeda who want to turn Iraq into an Islamic, fascist state and who kidnap and behead westerners and even murder Red Cross and United Nations personnel. The same people who plotted and murdered 3,000 American civilians on September the 11th 2001. Surely the war on terrorism is a good thing if it wipes out these Islamo-fascists and something that leftists should strongly support. After all these Islamo-fascists hardly share the same ideals as leftist hippies do they? They would slaughter and behead all of you in your free love hippie commune if they ever came to power.

 

At the cost of tens of thousands of innocent lives? There is a difference between being opposed to Islamic theocracies, regimes such as Saddams, and cheering for war. If you seek to make the world better by causing more suffering than would have occurred had you not tried, you do not make the world better. You make it worse.

 

There was a lot more freedom in pre-war Iraq than you actually give them credit for. More freedom than Saudi for instance.

 

"Jonny

Are you saying that because some Islamic fundamentalists are anti-war in Iraq then everyone who is anti-war must support Islamic fundamentalism? I saw something on some US white supremacists being pro the war in Iraq does that mean all people who are pro-war support white supremacy? "

what Im saying is the anti war movement isnt for the most part truely anti war its anti isreal ,anti western,and at least goes along with fundermentalist causes ie the anti hijab ban in french schools.

This is partly because in the uk one of the main backers are muslim groups and they have put a jihadi agenda into not just the anti war movement but the left in general .
I would guess that islamic groups could be bankrolling left wing groups thats what it feels like anyway .

I do dislike islam and have lots of ex-muslim friends and they for the most part seem to be looking for help from conservatives because as they see it the left have let them down .

I dont think that everyone thats against the war is pro-islamist

but I didnt see many placards saying down with islamists, down with islamic jihad, down with arafat, all the propoganda seems directed against bush and blair

and paul your right about saudi

 

The Iraq case did not meet the test of a war fought to prevent suffering; it has caused more suffering than Saddam had been responsible for over the prior 12 years. As for sanctions and sanctions related deaths, this rather presents a case for rethinking the sanctions regime which went so much further than preventing Saddam re-arming that it actually stopped vital medicines reaching the people of Iraq because of the fallacy and punishing imposition of the "dual purpose material" stipulations. I don't think it makes sense to argue that we invaded Iraq to prevent ordinary people from dying from the sanctions we were imposing...



As I recall sanctions were killing over 5,000 children, under the age of 5, each month. Over a half a million children died in those 12 years. All the while money (billions) was being spent on palaces, radar and air defense installations. If he (Saddam) had built up his infrastructure (and sanitation systems), then most of the deaths would have been preventable.

The United Nations didn’t seem to want to do anything. They were satisfied with the way it was. (We are still finding out which country had the most to gain, but that is a different topic)



Why am I here... Came here after 9/11 and was asked the same question. A one sided debate is pretty drab. As long as everyone maintains the rules, both sides can learn from the conversations. Not that either side is expecting to convert the other, but one might find they can at least see where the other side is coming from.

 

But there was no other way to free the Iraqi people from Tyranny than by war. This was because Saddams' Iraq had vast numbers of secret police who would have noticed the slightest whiff of any coup attemped and snuffed it out. The Iraqi people were simply unable to overthrow Saddams' regime themselves.

Not to go to war to oust Saddams' regime would have condemned the population of Iraq to live under a brutal, cruel and evil regime indefinitly. God know hows many would have been tortured, mutilated and killed in the long run. As Iraq could have remaind a brutal dictatorship for centuries.

 

Good point!! Hippies are all about nature, right? So why not let nature take it's course and stop aborting the babies?

Yes, "hippies" (as the lefties on this board define it, anyway) are all about peace and love, except when it comes to freeing the Iraqis.

 

What the hell kind of a question is this? What, are you scared of a little competition? Scared that maybe not eveyone thinks the same way... that we each have our own brain and way of rationing? Although the majority of people here are left-wingers, not eveybody is. Nowhere in the rules does it say, "You must lean toward the left and be a 'hippy' to join these forums." If that's what you want, then you need to start your own web site for LEFT WINGERS ONLY. But fortunately, Skip made this a free speech web site. It seems that he is on the left, or at least anti war, and he still allows us right-wingers to post here. It's because he respects the concept of free speech. It's funny that when a bunch of right-wingers start to gather in here and make some good arguments, all we hear in response is, "What are you even doing here?" And earlier someone said, "What are you doing posting here when you should be in Iraq?" Well sweetie, I have friends in Iraq who have Internet access. They could join these forums just as easy as we have. They probably don't want to hear a bunch of war bashing when they need to stay focused and encouraged. If nothing else, I support the war for the greater good. I hate war, but I guess that through this whole Iraq invasion, I've done extensive research, and I have learned that sometimes it is nessacery. It sucks, but that is the way it is. I wish we could live peacefully without war. But there is always going to be a Saddam Hussein out there causing someone to take action. If all the terrorists in the world could agree to peace, then war could be avoided. Why don't you go try to shove your peace/love ideaology down a muslim/terrorist's throat? You'll get your head cut off. But they, in truth, are the ones causing the war and hatred. So you should be enthused to fight against them, and rid the world of their violence so that one day, we will reach our common goal of peace.

 

If you read through the threads you will hear a lot better arguments to right-wingers than "what are you doing here" so even though it has been said before, moonjava is wrong about that.

I think Paul was allusing to the right-wing trolls that come by just to act stupid. There is a large difference in right wingers coming for political conversation or debate, and the ones coming across just to call liberals communists.

Anyway, we are never going to be able to get rid of every terrorist. But really, we aren't fighting a war on terror here. That is just a nice catch phrase to appease the american people.

 

I was alluring to all right wingers, including the trolls.

To me the debate is a dead horse. The arguments against the war far outweigh all the arguments supporting it, the amount of suffering that the coalition have taken to Iraq is disgusting and far outnumbers the deaths caused by the original regime, anyone who, after being armed with the facts, still supports this should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Plus if we go back in time the amount of direct and indirect suffering that the west has caused to the whole region is also equally disgusting.

I don't really call myself a hippy ... but I know that out of all the characteristics that a stereotypical hippy might have, pacifism is at the root of all of it. You can get by without long hair, without drugs, without beads and all the fashion stuff ... but you can't get away with the lack of pacifism and thos who think you can are hypocrites.

As for this being a free speech website, well yes that is true, but if you go to the main site at www.hippy.com you will see that it is designed as a free speech anti-war site, so that people could stand up against imperialism and warmongering without fear of being branded unpatriotic etc.

 

I have read through the threads, and yes you are right about the arguments. The leftwingers do argue legitimately for their cause most of the time. I've just noticed that when a debate gets really heated, I've heard several times in response, "What are you even doing here?" I think I may have even heard that response from you on at least one occasion, but I'm not going to go look up the archives b/c I simply don't care that much. But I say, what's wrong with having ppl from both sides in here to discuss these issues? Why are some of you so offended that others may think differently than yourselves?

 

because arguing whether it is right or wrong when it is blatently obvious does not bring about a solution to the problem

 

Not up for a good debate?
Then maybe the political forums are not the right place for you.

 

America Attacks isn't a forum for political discussion ... "America Attacks" is a reality.

... People are being killed by a load of "gun-ho cowboys" who think that they are fighting for a new wild west ... and you lot are trying to justify their behaviour.

This is not an issue that needs discussing, it is an issue that needs to be solved.