The 'evil' leftwing

The right wing seem to be trying to appropriate all positive morality for themselves, going as far as to claim that anyone with leftist leanings is morally corrupt and is either consciously, subconsciously or is in someway being duped into promoting ‘evil’.
This is exemplified by a series of partisan and deeply distorting articles written by Dennis Prager on the theme of ‘Judeo-Christian values’

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/archive.shtml

The main thrust of his argument seems to be that the ‘left’ have no morals because they have rejected a certain (rather extreme) interpretation of religious values held by Prager himself to be the true moral code of the religions involved.

In other words if people don’t agree with him (and his political agenda) they must be evil.

He has a very black and white type of thinking and he seems to think this simplistic way of looking at any question somehow equate with having moral values. The problem is that the views on which these supposedly god given morals are based are just his own bigoted beliefs. He has an opinion which he then backs up with texts from religious books, (which are notorious for being manipulated any way an individual wants them), then claims that his views are sacredly ordained.

This I see as being dangerous not only for those being accused by also for the accuser.

You see Mr Prager reminds me of those earlier bigots with a bible that supported the Ku Klux Klan as the bulwark against those corrupters of American morals and values, blacks, Jews, Catholics and those progressive liberal types that believed in the equality of the races. I hope that in today’s America the church of any such preacher would be empty and I hope that in the future the equally insane rants of people like Mr Prager and co will also be disregarded even reviled for the clap trap it is.

However just as the racist bible thumpers of the past could inflame destructive passions so could today’s bigots. When you accuse people of being evil, some take this as meaning that normal rules don’t apply, if someone is evil then you don’t have to treat them fairly. As with the old witch-hunt you might have to destroy them to save them. That can be a dangerous thing to put in people’s heads.

I mean when a political faction begin to be the arbiters of what is morally right and wrong what happens to dissenters? In that past when race not political affiliation was an issue and people thought they were defending the ‘American way’ a lynching could often be an outcome. Now I’m not saying that Americans would do such things, well not in this day and age, but if Mr Prager’s ideas become the norm what happens to those that don’t fit in with the ‘moral’ values of America? Do they get re educated like the dissidents in soviet Russia? Do they get interned as a potential danger like the US citizens of Japanese descent were in WWII? Would they be discriminated against like the victims of McCarthyism?

I think this idea that a persons politics can dictate a persons moral values is both stupid and dangerous, and also a little creepy.

What do you think?

 

I think if this trend expands too much we'll be headed for a dark age.

 

you can see proof to that right here in hipforums... just look at all the ignorant conservative pricks.

 

Yep Mui, if people don't agree with you (and your political agenda) they must be evil.

My opinion on the subject is that both sides are guilty of bigotry("Stupid conservative rednecks!", "Immoral liberal hippies!"), hypocracy("Outlaw guns to save our kids! Keep abortion legal!"<two signs on the same table at an anti-gun protest in Austin], "We'll save Iraq from Saddam by blowing the shit outta it!"), and ignorance("Bush is a conservative!", "Bush is a conservative!").

The official lines of both parties are chock full of hearty bullshit. I don't eat an all candy diet or an all meat diet, I just eat a balanced diet and I don't swallow anything that stinks.

As for religion or political ideas, people are entitled to keep whatever silly notions they choose in their head, no matter how distasteful or idiotic I happen to find those ideas, they are even entitled to express those notions so long as they respect my constitutionally guaranteed rights and the basic universal ethics of not murdering, raping or stealing. Of course, I will always retain my constitutional right (even if they think they have taken it away from me) to tell them exactly what sort of primitive fishbrain I think they are.

 

Why do people pay attention to all the bullshit, instead of focusing on what's real -- the issues that affect us all? Not this left/right BS that serves to only further polarize us.

There is garbage coming from both the left and the right. I do know this.

I think it's pretty ignorant to stereotype all right-wingers as religious nuts, who want to shove their way of life down people's throats, because I see a lot of the same thing coming from the left, except it's not over religion.

There are parts of the right that want to force religion down people's throats, just as there are parts of the left that would like to see all religion completely abolished from the public eye.

There are people on the right who believe the left are immoral, just as there are people on the left who believe the right are all rednecked religious nuts. The ignorance goes both ways.

Until people break away from this narrow-minded, egocentric mindset and look at both sides and their faults, we are going to continue down the same path, arguing over petty differences while the government fucks us all, regardless of our beliefs and values.

 

It is strange how people reacted to my post.

No one is claiming this isn’t happening or that it is limited to the fringe of the right wing movement, which frighteningly seems to imply it is part of the political mainstream?

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The right wing element in the thread seem to want to misdirect the argument by dismissing the question in favour of slandering the left as doing the same.

both sides are guilty of bigotry

both parties are chock full of hearty bullshit

same thing coming from the left

The ignorance goes both ways

The problem is that there isn’t a viable left wing party in the US, both the Republican and Democrat parties are right wing, what there seems to be is a conservative rightwing and a radical rightwing. Also Americans are predominantly active Christians. So in the context of this argument what left wing are Rat and Jesus talking about? I’d also wonder in their view what political movement wasn’t bigoted and full of bullshit?

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Jesus

You said that you don’t care what views people have or promote “so long as they respect my constitutionally guaranteed rights” but I give three examples related to the US, the lynching of blacks, the internment of US citizens and the harassment of political minorities. Now while there were those that opposed such things, in most cases a sizeable majority stayed silent or didn’t care and others actively supported or participated.

So what guarantees could you give that these things couldn’t happen again? And wouldn’t it make more sense to vigorously oppose such things when they come to light rather than shrug them in this off hand way of yours? If people had opposed McCarthy sooner it is possible he could have been stopped. If people oppose Prager (and his like) now maybe we could forestall some such future witch-hunts?

 

Sorry Balbus, but there is no such thing as a conservative party in the US. Conservative means supporting traditional values and opposing change, in the case of the United States the most traditional values of our government are those outlined in the Constitution and Bill of Rights(read em if you haven't) Those documents clearly envision a limited government by for and of the people, and which guarantees a high level of freedom for it's citizens from all form of tyranny, explicitly including religious tyranny.

I would say that today the Democratic party is far more conservative than the Republican party, but both parties fall far short of supporting the constitution, which is the central basis of any truly conservative party. But in reality, neither is either conservative or liberal, they are both authoritarian and leaning more and more with every voting cycle towards fascism.

What modern political movement in the US isn't bigoted and full of prejudice? The libertarian and green parties come to mind, both of which present true right-wing and left-wing platforms.

 

The lynching of blacks is murder, and clearly illegal and far from constitutional. I believe in freedom of speech, no matter my opinion on the speech being spoken. I draw the line at actions which harm another human being. So, if some dumbass wants to go around shouting "I hate niggers!" he has that right, as I have the right to call him a dumbass, but as soon as he tries to take away someone's right to life or liberty he must be stopped.

 

Jesus calm down and think!

I gave examples from US history where people’s rights were abused, that was the very point I was making. If you then tell me that “The lynching of blacks is murder, and clearly illegal and far from constitutional” it is only backing up what I am saying.

Also I wasn’t saying people shouldn’t have the right to free speech only that if they are not opposed then it can lead to an abuse of people’s rights. That if more people had stood up and countered those that said the integration of black people was a danger to ‘American’ values or had said that even communist shouldn’t be discriminated against or harassed for their opinions or that people shouldn’t be locked away without trial, then those abuses might not have happened.

The thing is they did because not enough people did oppose them.

So in this case do you think trying to convince people that anyone with left wing views is without morals and even somehow ‘evil’ is wrong? If yes don’t you think they should be opposed and if not why?

 

Wow. After reading the views of both sides I have re-examined my own political and moral views and have had a revelation and a life changing experience.

I have made an important decision thanks to this thread. I have decided....

To go take a shit.

All politicians are full of shit. Nobody really gives a fuck about anything but their own re-election.

So everyone that is fed up with the crap in Washington, I urge you to join me in my fecal protest! Lets all go have a nice, relaxing shit!

 

USNDH,

After I have my coffee, I'll join you :&

Balbus,

I certainly consider the person quoted in the article to be a certifiable idiot, but as he is not attempting to take away anyone's rights I have no reason to take away his. Note my signature. You can rest assured that should the US government start taking away the fundamental rights of it's citizens, or deliberately allow citizens to take away other people's rights, I will come to the defense of liberty with my very life. But I'm not going to start a war over a bunch of silly words.

 

Hey, Monkey.
The US is taking away people's constitutional rights. Not just iraqis and all the future countries attacked in the war on terror. Your own people (and ours) are being locked away without trial as potential terrorists. There have been allegations of torture and all sorts from guantanamo bay and it's fucking scary. Just agree with Balbus already and stop forcing him to make you look stupid.

 

No shit. But it's not to the level yet where I would consider it tyranny, and it has little to do with this guy's freedom of speech. I'm not forcing Balbus to pretend that everyone who doesn't agree with him is stupid, that's his own problem. But, what does the patriot act and guantanamo have to do with an ignorant writer who likes to pretend that everyone who doesn't agree with him is evil? What gives me, you, Balbus or anyone else, the right to censor his words? Hell, If everyone who thought that everyone who didn't agree with them was evil was censored 90% of the human race would probably have their mouths sewn shut, including many of the so-called free-thinkers here on hipforums.

Free speech is not freedom to speak only what a few people agree with. Nobody has the right to not be offended, you have the right to not listen, offer counter arguments, or be a vocal asshole, but you do not have a right to limit what anyone else may say. If you don't like what this guy is saying, why don't you offer a counter argument? Why do you have to insist that he be censored and that anyone who doesn't agree with you that he should be censored is stupid? Of course, you have the right to vocalize your support of fascist censorship policies, just like the guy in the article, but you shouldn't expect to be taken seriously.

 

He (Balbus) hasn't said anyone's evil. Speaking for myself, I think he's right that we should challenge these misguided people before it gets to the stage where we have to fight and kill to stay alive and free because if we do resort to that we will be no better than them. He also hasn't said this guy should be censored, he said he should be challenged.

 

I never said Balbus called anyone evil, I was referring to the guy in the article. Geez. And where have I said that the guy shouldn't be challenged? Hell, I've called him several species of buffoon myself. I'm just saying he has the same right to speak his mind as anyone else regardless of popular or unpopular views on his opinion. Stop projecting please.

 

Jesus I should warn you that this site due to it’s nature is very probably monitored by some branch of the US government, and I know that at least once someone has received a visit from federal authorities solely because of something they said here. I am telling you this because someone that posts a picture of their guns and talks of their willingness to die for a cause is very likely to be of more interest to them than most of the usual lefties that hang out here normally, especially in a post McVeigh US in an age of the ‘war on terror’.

You may have already realised this or understood it from the beginning but I think if not that you should be told.

Always remember that throughout the ages ‘silly words’ if they express opinions that governments don’t like or think are threatening, have got many people into deep trouble. Remember the victims of the McCarthy which-hunts.


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This idea that at the appropriate time you would arise in defence of your (and others) rights is intriguing.

Are you saying that you would have used you arsenal to defend black people against the KKK in say pre-fifties Deep South America? Do you think this would have helped the situation and if so in what way?

What do you think would have happened if a US citizen of Japanese descent had fired on the federal authorities that had come to take them into internment during WWII? Or if a victim of McCarthyism had refused to appear before the court and then used arms to resist his arrest? Do you think their neighbours and their fellow citizens would have rallied to their aid? I hear many Americans believe that is exactly what happened at Waco?

Think about it, imagine that another atrocity was committed within the US by Muslim extremists and the US government began rounding up US citizens of Arab descent? What do you think the reaction would be if one of them fired on the authorities coming to take them away. Do you think Americans would see them as a patriotic fellow citizen fighting for liberty or a terrorist, especially with government spin and a media willing to accept that spin?

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I have actually thought about that before. In the KKK controlled south, while it wasn't illegal, it was almost impossible for Black People to acquire firearms due to the influence of the KKK. I am training to become a gunsmith, and soon will have a FFL license, I'm assuming that I would have pursued the same career path in that time, and a great deal of black people living in the south were extremely poor, so I would be able to offer weapons and ammunition to poor black people at cost, and I would stock a variety of inexpensive handguns and shotguns for them to choose from, if they were still unable to afford my prices I would have given it to them on whatever payment program they could afford. What I would have done, if the KKK was a problem in my community, is to help the head of every black household obtain a firearm and train them in how to properly use it and defend their family with it. I believe a citizen capable and willing of acting in their own self-defense is far more effective than a vigilante. Of course, if they were to shoot a white man in self defense they would probably face murder charges, but if the KKK was aware that busting into the homes of black people and dragging them out would likely result in being shot at, they would be much more hesitant to do so.

As for Waco, while I believe that the government pursued the matter in an unconstitutional manner, the fact remains that the Branch Davidians were in violation of a number of serious laws, most notably they possessed a number of illegal fully-automatic rifles and there was a lot of serious child abuse going on there. I am a law abiding citizen and I have stated before and will state again that should I commit a crime I will not resist arrest. Now, in the case that a racist or otherwise oppressive government starts rounding up law abiding citizens, people would have every right to defend themselves. I am not alone in this belief, there are millions of Americans who share my thoughts on the matter and while the government and the media may try to put a spin on things, and regardless of popular racism, there will always be plenty of people who understand the constitution and will come to it's aid through legal, media and even forceful means should the situation be dire enough. I am only one of millions of citizens who own firearms to protect themselves, their family, and their country from all threats, foreign and domestic, anyone who has been to a gun show can attest to that, and if they decide to come after me for exercising my constitutional right to bear arms as a peaceful and law abiding citizen, they will have to come after everybody, as I have many friends in the gun community and they will know, and spread the word, should such a tragic act of tyranny take place.

 

Headed for?

 

The right is unanimous in its worship of this religious symbol:

$ ​

 

Now you've really got my attention. I agree that "even" communists shouldn't be discriminated against, but as long as the government is owned by the Robber Baron piggies, we might as well stay "in the closet."

Like so? Got it, thanx.