It just seems so odd

• Why is the item of torture and murder of (supposedly) the Son of God the symbol of christianity?
• Why is the image of this son of god being tortured and murdered on this item a christian icon?
• Why do Christians worship Jesus when his specific instructions were to worship God the Father? (not god the son).
• Why are the letters of a Roman spy, christian persecutor, and murderer preserved in the new Testament while the teachings and writings of the first-hand apostles were (and still are) systematically discredited or destroyed?

One wonders.

 

Cuz christians are incorrigable sinners who never do as they are told. Rebels, each and every one of them.

 

"Why is the item of torture and murder of (supposedly) the Son of God the symbol of christianity?"

Because Jesus died on the cross so the way to God would be open. He took all the sin upon Himself because He loves every sinner. So its the symbol not because Christians think suffering and torture is cool, but because Jesus took the pain upon Himself so that we can have salvation in Him.

"Why is the image of this son of god being tortured and murdered on this item a Christian icon?"

I think you are referring to the crucifix, the image of Christ on the cross, often seen in roman-catholic churches. This is so that the believer looks at it and realizes once again what Jesus did for him/her. So it's a focus. I am not very familiar with RC spirituality so maybe I'm not the best person to answer this. In protestant churches there are empty crosses, this to focus on the resurrection of Christ, and that ‘It is finished’ as Jesus said.

“Why do Christians worship Jesus when his specific instructions were to worship God the Father? (not god the son).”

Because Jesus is the only way to the Father, He said so Himself. Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6).

“Why are the letters of a Roman spy, christian persecutor, and murderer preserved in the new Testament while the teachings and writings of the first-hand apostles were (and still are) systematically discredited or destroyed?”

Paul was a bad guy indeed. But he really was totally reborn, from a murderer of christians he became one of the greatest evangelists in church history. That we have done bad things in our past is of no importance if sins are forgiven and if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (1 cor. 5:17)

apocryph books were never part of the canon.

 

If I said it in a weird of difficult way, or you have objections, please say so.

 

totaly agree dutch!
i have really nothing to say as i would just be repeating what you jsut said!

 

You might have misunderstood his point.

We all know the story of Christ dying on the cross. I think his point was that christians seem to use the violence and torture as christian as a front to their message, rather than the kind, loving nature he exhibited during his life.

Movies like "The Passion" are perfect examples of this. Mel could have easily made a move about christ's life, maricles, wisdom, etc...but he chose to gliorify his violent torturous death instead.

And I have also done a lot of study on Paul/Saul and his impact on Christianity. He is basically the father of modern christianity. But he suspiciously had some close ties to Mithra as well. Some speculate that is the reason for the similarities between Mithra and Christ.

 

mel gibson did so because more people can accept that jesus was a good guy and not the saviour!
the movie makes it all too real!

 

it was mels intention to make a movie focused on the suffering and death of Christ. There are a lot of good movies I've seen on the whole gospel, mel just decided to focus on the suffering and death. I agree that there are some things in the movie that are a bit too much, such as the flail (is that the correct english word?) getting stuck in Jesus' side, or the blood spalettering up in slow-motion when He's crucified, or that Barabbas is a little bit stereotype, but still I think it's a good movie because it really made me think about it again hpw much Jesus must love me and everyone to take that upon Himself.

If I'm correct, somewhere on the christianity forum is a thread about mithra and christianity, you must search a bit but you might find some interesting things said in that discussion.

Ofcourse christians shouldn't forget all the love. Jesus was a very emotional man, He was filled with compassion for all the masses that followed him, because they were like sheep without a leader....all those sick, blind, searching, He loved each and every one of them. But the Bible says that God's love is revealed to the world in this way: that Christ died for us when we were still sinners. christians should ofcourse not think that suffering is cool, the point is that THROUGH the suffering, Jesus gave life.

Anything unclear, please say so, happy to talk with ya!

 

I can not join any religion that thinks that murder is sin but murder during war time is acceptable.
Maybe the dead jesus was a war time thing so it's acceptable to them?

 

Nice generalization. Now go post somewhere where your comment might be relevant.

 

what nonsense that was. you know what happens when you assume, right?

anyhoo, i know quite a few christians who worship christ. i, myself, object to this practice. jesus is a mediator, but God is God. jesus prayed to God, taught the rest of us to pray to God (invoking jesus' name of course). praying to jesus for favors, thanking jesus for blessings and all of that seems blasphemous to me.

i'm sure when the jews were making their blood sacrifices to God, they didn't pray to the lamb after they hacked it up.

 

That's absolutely correct. I heard a guy say once "it's time that they took Jesus down off the cross" and it just struck me with a potent realization that led to my questioning the reasons why. So now I don't accept anything that is beyond reason just because it's traditional, conformist, or whatever, to do so. I use my (god-given) gift of reason to suss it all out, and in doing so question why a device of torture is the icon etc etc.
All this stuff mentioned about salvation through Jesus etc comes from books that were written circa 200 years after the 'crucifixion', the terms of reference not appearing in any earlier works such as Mark (circa 70 - 50 CE), or in the Dead sea scrolls/Nag Hammadi library. So it's safe to say that the words attributed to Jesus by the likes of Saul (Paul) are restructured beliefs that have no historical authenticity, which then means that 75% of the New Testament is questionable. Out of this grew church orthodoxy as we inherit it.
So the question as to why the torture is idolized is left hanging along with Jesus to this day.

 

they did tawke him down from the cross,he was buried and then he conquered death and gods spirit ripped through the veil in the temple and went and caused holy spirit havoc,raising the dead,healing the seek,making the blind see.

through jesus god gave us a new covenant

 

well, that wasn't the only point he made, and it was already addressed. for a lot of christians, the fact that christ willingly succumbed to this agony for the people he loved is of such incredible importance, and many people, out of some misplaced political correctness, want to whitewash the whole thing. this was mel's way of re-stating the importance and profundity of one man's sacrifice of himself to agony, pain and cruel death. the terror that he felt, the sadness, the pain. a lot of people have no concept, basically, because a lot of us movie culture people have no imaginaion left.

 

mrRee, 200 years after the crucifixion???

 

I don't see how the cricifixion of christ has been white-washed in any way. Christians rarely are concerned with political corectness when it comes to the spreading of their religion. The first message non-christians ever hear about christ was his torture and death for our souls at the hands of the Jews/Romans. Lots of people all the world over have and are suffering and dying for their beliefs, christ was not the only one. Why emphasise that when they could emphasize what they believe sets him apart from the crowd of the religious martyrs throughout history? Why make a violent death the foundation of a religion?

I also find it ironic how christian "family values" groups will send thousands upon thousands of complaints to the FCC about violence and gore in the media, yet all the violence and gore in the Passion was somehow different...

Anyhow, I was just clarifying MrRee's post since it seemed many were misunderstanding the question. He wasn't asking why christ died, or why it is important, but those were the answers he was getting.

I'll give my answer, although my answers aren't usually appreciated too much here...I think if you look at the history of religion in our society you will see a trend: sacrifice. Many religions, past and present, have demanded sacrifice (either of animals, possessions, people, etc...) or has had a figure that has sacrificed themselves.

Why would chtistians focus on that sacrifice?

I don't know why they do individually (and not all do), but as an general entity they do it because it obviously works. Why change the formula? Christianity is the most widespread religion in the world. People hear that a man was tortured and died just for them, to save their souls. It can be almost obligating, especially to the more naieve. Not only that, but it imposes guilt on those who want to turn away from the belief, making it more diffucult to do so.

Not that I think there is a group of men behind closed doors scheming on how to best manipulate the public, that's absurd. The thing is, an idea (or belief) needs to meet a certain critera to take hold and spread. This paticular belief happens to meet those.

Some examples of critera that would cause an idea (paticularily a religious idea) to take hold and spread among society: Benefits to those who believe, punishment to those who don't. A gripping, dramatic story that get's your attention. Sacrifice (I already explained that religion and sacrifice seem to always go hand in hand). Powerful gods, angles, deamons, entities. Explanations for the unexplained. An afterlife for our loved ones - comfort to those who have lost loved ones. I could go on and on.

For anyone who is intrested in the how and why society seems to come up with and perpetuate ideas studing sociology and specifically social memes may open your eyes a bit, answer some questions. (MrRee =P)

 

you know what happens when we assume, right, sera?

don't assume that the only thing any christian ever ponders is christianity. i think your "answers" are unappreciated because they're so self-admiring and kinda mean-spirited.

 

I am not assuming anything, my answer comes primarily from the study of sociology and the history of religion. I wasn't talking about the individual christian, but the religion as a whole - past, present, future. There was nothing mean-spirited in my post. It was very respectful. I'm sorry if it offends you that I look at christianity and religion differently than you might, but life has obviously tought me different lessons. If all that puts you on the defensive that is your problem, not mine.

Not to mention that just because you didn't appreciate my answer doesn't mean MrRee (the person who's question I was anwering) will feel the same.

Do you have anything to say about my post that isn't just an insult on my character? Kinda the pot calling the kettle black, is it not?

 

it is the pot calling the kettle black. takes one to know one, really. if we're not here to call each other on being jerks, then i don't know what we're all here for.
i love the study of sociology, of the philosophy of religion. my being a liberal christian DOESN'T mean that i don't know what's going on with religion in general and my own in particular.

and the death and sacrifice of christ HAS been whitewashed. people had really lost the imagination and experience of pain to truly understand what this particular martyr suffered. (and here's where i really object to your post) just because we truly wish to fully appreciate the suffering of our own martyrs does not necessitate that we spend all our time ALSO pondering the martyrs of faiths that we don't believe in. it's nothing to do with the point.
yes the passion of the christ was gory. but it was also rated R, and not for general consumption on tv. either way, i consider it the parent's job to control what their child sees. i'd rather my daughter watched sex on tv than violence, but that's just me.

similarities between religions mean nothing to the believers in those religions. it's how they choose to guide themselves through this life. if you've got some asshole pounding on your door to shove a bible in your face, tell him to fuck off. i do. i do the same to you.

 

Originally Posted by MamaTheLama
I can not join any religion that thinks that murder is sin but murder during war time is acceptable.
Maybe the dead jesus was a war time thing so it's acceptable to them?

Mama, I agree with you, though I admit that I would have a hard time resisting murdering a convicted serial killer if given the chance to.
Tom, I found the comment relevent, and I sincerely hope that MamaTheLama ignores your request. At least she had an opinion related to the topic, which is more than you offered.
How about you go post somewhere else unless you actually have something productive to contribute? Just a thought.