How do you as a Christian view an unconditionally loving god with conditions

That is one of the better answers I have heard to this question. After all, a spiritual experience is not one of rationality, but of a purely subjective irrational nature. I believe that the subconscious mind is our doorway to the spiritual, and while the conscious mind is focused on the physical linear and rational world, our subconscious is connected to a nonlinear irrational world.

Could you explain the stemement, 'to fulfill the law?' Do you mean God's law?

 

I was doing my best to follow forum rules. With great respect, I was doing my best to humbly paraphrase Gospel rather then directly quote it.

These were Jesus’ own words not mine, and yes he was referring to the traditions and customs that were passed down through Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, Jeremiah, etc etc.

Meditation and Contemplation are huge parts of Christian tradition. The only difference with other traditions is when we seek to meditate we root the practice in prayer. Example: inhale Jesus, exhale I trust in you.

God Bless our day,

 

Would anyone be open to this argument:

That God's love is truly unconditional, but God had an understanding with man in regards to God's creation. I am referring to the covenant as it stood in the Garden of Eden--a covenant between God as adult and man as adult. In other words that man, in the Garden of Eden was meant to be responsible for himself and his actions. As that and each covenant was broken, it meant that the covenant between man and god took into increasing account that man was a child. Therefore the New Testament is lessons between a father (God) and child (man). Therefore man is given these conditions that are for his own good, as a parent would give conditions to a child, for example, don't go out in the street. As the children get older, they will cross the street, ride their bikes in the street, and one day drive in the street. So the condition is not really a true condition, but a guiding principle to teach the child until they know how to be in the street safely.

Now understand that the implication here is that if God's love is absolutely unconditional, then there was no true reason for Jesus to die on the cross in forgiveness of our sins, nor to follow the Ten Commandments, nor even to believe in Jesus. Because God's love and grace is unconditional, in the end, we will all experience an equally satisfying afterlife, but that we, having free will, can either have a good physical life, or choose to live a bad, and even dangerous physical life, which would be bad for ourselves and others around us in this realm.

Do you agree, disagree in part, or disagree entirely. I am not trying to argue with anyone or change anyone's beliefs, but what do you think of such an argument?

 

You have established the fact that you are what Jesus referred to in one of his parables as fertile soil. There is no need for caveats I do not feel hostility here and its the only reason I am participating in this thread.

There is some good in this last post. The Parent-child relationship is key to a fair bit sacred scripture. And on a subjective note its truly what I feel present in my day to day life as my relationship with God evolves.

There is however a slight hiccup in that post. As his children, he wants us to be happy. And what will make us truly joyful in the depths of our souls is to be “Holy”. Good News! He doesn’t expect us to do this. Nope. Not at all, that is a very dangerous prideful place to go. Truth is, not only does he want to do this, ... No human can do this... that was the whole point. Only He (God) can do this. Only God can sanctify a soul.

All Blood is absolutely a profoundly sacred thing biblically. The blood of Jesus was and is the only means of sanctification of our souls.

Remember that part of Gospel where he tells his disciples you can’t enter the kingdom if I don’t wash your feet... ... ... ? Ya this has nothing to with removing dirt and making toes smell good!

His most precious blood is the weapon par excellence in Spiritual Combat.

We as his followers, and our many words can have the opposite effect and repel many a soul. But in the end, ... Jesus did it all for us. All we need to do is believe and let him wash our feet, one minute, one hour, one day at a time.

Intense prayer (desire to interact), gratitude, and desire for asceticism, are key to get the ball rolling. God does all the heavy lifting from there.

May God bless us.

 

That is a good scripture based answer.

 

Well personally I am actually really glad that there is at least some sort of standard of right and wrong. Imagine having to spend eternity with the Nazis, or with a bunch of murderers. There are many aspects of society that I feel are just wholly wicked and should be judged.

 

Or could you imagine having a friend, let's call him Harry, and you are a conservative boy, and the two of you grow up together, but he is always getting into trouble and doing bad things. So at 13, he is sneaking off and smoking cigarettes, and you say no. At 14 he is fooling around with girls and at some point in this he loses his virginity. You are a good person and don't do anything more than kiss the girls if even that. At 15 he is trying drugs, and you just say no. At 18 he is going off to the strip joints and you say no its not right. At 21 he offers to take you to a brothel and pay for a girl, but you refuse, you are saving yourself for marriage. He goes through life gambling, drinking, womanizing, and having all kinds of fun and excitement.

Then you get old and die, and go to heaven, and suddenly you here a voice call, "Hey! You're here too!" It sounds familiar as you turn around, and sure enough---its Harry!

Would that seem fair?

Of course this does not take into account that life in the physical realm is much like an investment---there is a risk-return ratio. The more wild of a life you live, the more risk you take, meaning the more likely you are to take losses or suffer problems. But there is also the possibility of rising to great heights. A more conservative life on the straight and narrow can is less likely to suffer such problems and losses, and has the chance of steadily rising up to an acceptable level of accomplishment or stature.

I am a hippie and fired all my guns at once and exploded into space, to paraphrase the song, Born To Be Wild. So I've had a lot of excitement, a lot of fun. My younger sister on the other hand was always conservative and led a life on the straight and narrow. I was a millionaire by the time I was 29 or 30 and living in Japan. She was budgeting and saving money. On the other hand, 5 or 6 years later my Filipina wife and I were selling food in the Philippines to construction workers who made a few dollars a week, and by doing so made only enough money to get food on the table for my family and buy enough food to prepare and sell the next day. I had a lot of exciting times, but I had a lot of struggles and issues that my sister never had. Today her and her family are in a pretty good situation, and I don't think my sister would have wanted the life I lead. I, on the other hand wouldn't want to live her life. But, in many ways you could say that hers has been easier than mine.

She, of course, would want me, and the whole family, to be in heaven too. But she would argue that I have to change my life considerably to make that happen, which is another story... What is fair in terms of who goes to heaven? Risks gambled in this life, result in the life lived, with its struggles and triumphs, and the risks taken.

 

Yes, I certainly agree with your assessment of Nichiren. I do think that there is an underlying, somewhat hidden, duality in the Eastern religions that emerged from India between earth/female/evil and heaven/male/good that Nichiren could have based this on, but it certainly spoke to the times as the Kamakura Shogunate created the feudal system from the local planter culture of ancient Japan. There was certainly a political, social, and ethical motive at play to empower a good over evil philosophy.

 

Good over evil ? They embrace , and then only one exists . Who has experienced this ?

 

My understanding of what Jesus is saying is that life goes better for us if we concentrate on our own inventory and not worry about our neighbor's (Mat.7:3-5). If the thing uppermost on our minds is getting our fair share in comparison with others, we're missing the point, which is our relationship with God. Relative deprivation--feeling deprived on the basis of how we compare with some reference group-- is a documented sociological phenomenon, but one that contributes to a life of discontent. Seems to me, Jesus' parable of the Prodigal Son brings that out nicely. The other brothers didn't take it well that the prodigal son could go to the head of the line, but they needed to get over it. To me, whatever other things give satisfaction in life, nothing compares with God, who I find present in everything and everybody. My life would seem dull in comparison with yours, but I neither judge nor envy you since I'm happy with what I have.

Back in 2016, when Pope Benedict announced that Catholics are no longer allowed to believe that Muslims, Hindus, atheists, etc., are going to hell, some Catholics asked "why anyone already a Christian should bother to keep it up when they are going to heaven anyway." If a former pope says non-Catholics can go to heaven, why be Catholic? | Andrew Brown Of course, the catch is they have to practice the other religions (or irreligions) in good conscience, and Satanism isn't on the approved list.

 

I personally agree with you. I do believe in an unconditionally loving absolute being to the universe. I also argue that our purpose for being here is to experience life. Therefore it is very possible we would spend eternity with a bunch of Nazis. In fact, people tend to forget that Nazi Germany was filled with Christian churches and that Nazis went to church and were devout followers too.

The implication of unconditional love is that we are all in the grace of God regardless of who we are or what we do and believe. Therefore I would take it a step further beyond the Pope. In the end, everyone is blessed. Unconditional love is something that is experienced through spirituality, but is incompatible with religion. Hell is something that we create ourselves, and for ourselves. But this is my belief and I respect the fact that others believe differently.

 

I agree with you about Hell. I think Hell is a bad attitude. As for Nazis in heaven, I think of Jesus on the cross saying "Forgive them for they know not what they do". (But if they do know what they do, Heaven probably isn't their eternal destination. I don't see why unconditonal love is incompatible with religion. I think it would depend on the religion. I think of spirituality as having to do with a sense of the sacred or numinous, while religion adds the elements of creed, code, cultus (ritual), and community. Code could be a problem, I suppose, but we can love the sinner while hating the sin.

I think of eternity as being outside of time instead of time everlasting. Beauty, truth, liberty, justice, etc., are timeless (eternal) values. I don't expect to be going anywhere after death except six feet under or into an urn over the fireplace, so I don't worry much about sharing eternity with ex-Nazis.

 

Ya right you have to be careful or envy may lead your down some dark roads.

Proverbs 23: 17 "Do not let your heart envy sinners, but be zealous for fear of the Lord all the day; for surely there is a hereafter, and your hope will not be cut off."

Sure there were churches in Nazi Germany but just because there is a church it does not mean that it is full of life. In fact, if there was true faith in Germany, what better way for the forces of evil to attempt to quench it than the rise of the Nazi regime. I know of some churches from that time that actually fled the country shortly after the beginning of the war. There may have been some people that were unaware of the severity of their actions, after all the majority of Germans were in poverty before the war due to the unfair conditions imposed on them by the treaty of Versailles. But still there comes a point when you have to say, no, I will not participate in this genocide. Or maybe, no, I will not participate in this war. The citizens of Germany could have fled the country, as many did. There were some people that stood up for what is right, and they were murdered by the German state.

 

Envy can take you down dark roads.

As to the issue of Nazis, one problem with religion is that it makes people susceptible to utopian thinking. (The late American philosopher Isaiah Berlin wrote some very good pieces on the folly of utopian thinking and how it has done so many terrible things through history and how it leads to a mentality of fighting for success at all costs.) Nationalism, other than the nationalism of a disenfranchised and oppressed people trying to regain statehood, is an insidious evil that plays on cultural identities and motifs including that of religion. I recently reread the novel, Sharks and Little Fish, by Wolfgang Ott, which is a novel about a 17 year old who runs away from home and works on a fishing boat, at the start of the war, and then joins the navy, eventually ending up on a U-Boat. I last read this book as a teenager, and years later when Das Boat came out, I was disappointed that it wasn't more like this story of life aboard the U-Boats. It is clear that the author drew on first hand experience of the war. He makes it very clear how important the church and Christianity were to the Germans at that time. They all thought they were God-Fearing pious Christians doing the Lord's work. The every day German, many of whom were literally members of the Nazi Party, and even the German soldiers, were really oblivious to the wholesale murder of the Jewish population. Even if they knew that they were being sent to camps and their property was being taken from them, the German people were indifferently alienated from the evil reality.

Nationalism plays on fear and bias, it creates division, and empowers a sense of superiority, while demonizing the 'Other.' I was shocked when my fundamentalist Christian sister, who I mentioned above, supported policies that put children in cages at the border. She may not have known of the actual reality. She limits her exposure to the news and the media as she doesn't want to hear of the negative things going on in the world. But a part of her knew that children were separated and she certainly knew the right wing narratives that pushed these policies. Still to this day I find it hard to believe that we grew up together, and that we went to church as children and learned about Christian love together, and yet she justifies the evil that was happening on the border.

The Germans in World War II were not much different from Americans today. And now we can see exactly how such things evolve. Many of the German people were sold on the idea that Nationalism is a good thing, and that it returns the nation to a glory that was in fact based on myth. Americans today are still today being sold on the idea that Nationalism is a good thing, and that it will return us to the glory of a mythical past. (And to drive this point home, since we all know that Nazis are bad, there is an attempt to associate Nazis with the socialism of the left, and downplay the fact that it was in fact Nationalism, and that the socialist structures it did incorporate were very much of the right.) I am sickened by all of this.

I would like to think that more Christians would stand up for what is right, and speak out against this dark evil that has appeared on our own shores. Alas, Kierkegaard explained the Christian dilemma of today better in the 1700's than probably any Christian commentator or critic today. (Ok, I may be exaggerating a bit, but certainly in regards to certain facets of religion today.

 

First of all, let me be clear I was explaining what I take to be Catholic doctrine. I myself have a totally different understanding of Hell. As I've often said, hell is a bad attitude and an idealized projection of what things would be like if everyone were a sociopath or unconcerned about the welfare of society or other people--or devotees of the Orange One. In the words of Thomas Hobbes, it would be a "war of all against all." Why would Christians think Satanists might go to hell? Probably because they think Satanism is ostensibly evil, and practicing Satanism in good conscience might be particularly problematic.

Of course, it depends on what they mean by Satanism and what its followers do on its behalf, since Satanists like most religions, come in several different varieties. Anton Lavey, founder of the popular Church of Satan, was an atheist who didn't actually believe in Satan, the supernatural entity. He drew heavily on the writings of Ayn Rand, Social Darwinism and Ragnar Redbeard's Might Is Right (How evil Can you get!). He told the FBI (who investigated his possible role in a plot to kill Ted Kennedy) that most of his followers were “fanatics, cultists, and weirdos.” The Satanic Temple, based appropriately in Salem, Mass., seems to be mainly aimed at attacking theistic religion in general and Christianity in particular. An offshoot of the Church of Satan was the Temple of Set, founded by political scientist Micahel Aquino--Satanism with an Egyptian flavor centered around black magic and deification of the individual. For Satanism with a Persian flavor, there is the Dakhma of Angra Manyu based right here in Oklahoma. They made the news a few years back when they stole a host from a Catholic Church to hold a Black Mass in the Oklahoma City Civic Center. The Catholic Church won a lawsuit in replevin to get it back, and 40-50 people had to hold their Black Mass sans host. Then there is the so-called "theistic" Satanism that actually takes the existence of the supernatural Prince of Darkness seriously. The Orphite Cultus Satanis claimed to follow Gnostic thinking that Satan liberated humanity from an evil demiurge. This organization seems to be largely inactive now since the death of its founder. The Order of Nine Angels and Joy of Satan are Neo-Nazi in orientation, while the Greater Church of Lucifer, is not. For those of Marxist-Leninist sympathies, there are the Satanic Reds (Marx and Lenin would turn over in their graves), and for those of more anarchist leanings there is the Temple of the Black Light.

The ones who really worry me are the ones we don't know about-- the small autonomous groups that practice this or that version of Satanism. I have no problem, as long as "this or that" doesn't include sacrificing my dog. I knew some Satanists around here who seemed to be mainly interested in dancing naked in the woods, shocking the community, and challenging the religious establishment--not an unworthy cause. The danger lies in the possibility that some will take the worship of evil seriously and do those awful things fundamentalist Christians accuse them of doing. And Q-Anon accuses Democrats of doing.

 

I always needed proof of such things. But today I am convinced that there is life after death. Part of this happens to do with my Filipina wife. Her ancestors were healers in the old Philippine traditions, and this legacy affects her family even today. Those traditions were largely lost as the Spanish did much to destroy those traditions. But they were balian---an old Philippine word which uses the root 'to accompany.' In other words, their healing included that of a psychopomp---healing that would mean accompanying the dead to the other side.

We discovered this after my wife's first husband passed on and my stepdaughter, who was 9 at the time, had what we in the west would call a mental breakdown at his funeral. My step kids were not close to their father, and doctors said that it was very unusual for this kind of mental breakdown in a child so young. What happened is that after the funeral she got very quiet and lethargic, and would not speak or eat or do anything else. She had this expression that I described as a scared little animal. We took her to several doctors, including a doctora that was a close friend. They all insisted that it was very unlikely that she would recover easily from this breakdown and that she would likely require institutionalization. On our way home, driving across Manila, my wife was very upset. Out of the blue I suggested that we take her to one of the tribal people to cure her, but we didn't really know where the tribes were---generally they are up in the mountains. I don't really know why I even suggested it. But the taxi driver said he knew someone like that in the neighboring province so the next day he took us to a small farm house next to a little field, and my wife and my stepdaughter stepped in to talk to this short little farmer. I hid inside the taxi because we were struggling financially at the time and we were afraid that if he saw a white guy that his price would go way up. A few minutes later my wife came out and told me that he said that I was supposed to be a part of the healing and when she asked how much he said that it would just be a gift of tobacco. Long story short, he took us to the back of his property and we all walked into this stream. He then had us pour water on her, and he bent down as if he was whispering something inside her ear, then suddenly she looked up and said, "Mama, where am I?"

I was blown away, and as we drove home, I asked her if he told her what her daughter's problem was. Apparently he told her that he had two spirit helpers, an eagle and a snake, if I remember right, and they had told him that she had a gift, and for whatever reason her father chose her to guide him to the other side, but being a small child and not having any training, she had no idea what she was doing and so her soul was just wandering on the other side. What I didn't mention here is that all this happened after a good week of paranormal or strange activity at our house and around my wife. The night he died there was a strange knock on the window of our house. There was a wall around our house---in the front it was a grate with spikes at the top, and in the back it was a tall wall with broken glass and barbed wire at the top, so it was impossible for someone to get into our yard and knock on a window, but my wife had me look around anyway---no one was there. The next day someone brought word that he had passed away. And all kinds of things happened after that. The maids would not sleep in their bedroom as they insisted that he was in there touching them (he was a womanizer). When we went to the market we walked to the security gate of our subdivision and hired a tricycle. A large brown butterfly suddenly left a bush and flew onto my wife's chest. The security guard said, "Ma'am he was waiting for you--he has been there all morning." My wife responded, 'It is my ex-husband saying goodbye.' The butterfly stayed there for some time and we waited, then it finally took off and flew away above the trees. There were a lot of other things that happened to. This was a period of time after I had given up on religion and spirituality and so forth and became very agnostic, having never found any proof.

It was all very strange to me, until we had returned to the states and I had a chance to research such things. That was in the early 90's and since then I have seen countless strange things with my wife. Gradually as I found my own path, and I tried to help her with her path, she has developed her own inherited gifts on her own. She won't listen to me if I try to make suggestions or anything, but on the other hand, when she does something, I can point out how that relates to things of this matter. It has reached a point where over the past year and a half she has started healing family members, so for example, she recently picked up a brass singing bowl and used it as a gong, with a beat I recognized. Afterwards I showed her youtube videos of the Bontoc and the Dayak tribes in the Philippines, and how they use the same beat in their healing songs. It is really amazing to me how she develops this.

But I can tell you lots of stories. For example, when my younger brother bought his first house, she didn't get to see it until after he moved in and invited all the family over. After a tour of the house, my mom asked her what she thought of the house as we all sat in the living room. She answered, "I don't want to say anything bad about it, it is a nice house, but there is a boy by the fireplace in the basement." My family all reacted that she doesn't have to say things like that. I responded that she has a way of perceiving these things and she wouldn't just make it up. Sure enough, after my brother had lived there for a month or two and became friends with one of his neighbors, this neighbor asked if he had been told that a 12 year old boy had committed suicide by the fireplace in the basement. A number of years ago my wife worked at an old folks home for about a month and a half. She quit because she would keep getting visits late at night----that is, in the middle of the night she would wake me up, yelling at someone I couldn't see to 'get out of our room!' and 'You don't belong here.' Then she would show up at work and find out that the person who she saw the night before had died over night. I can tell lots of stories going back to our life in Japan in the 1980's (back then I didn't really believe them).

Then you can add to this my experiences in Native American ceremony---which I have experienced over the last 20 years after we returned to the US. Included in these amazing experiences is that of the yuwipi ceremony, or Lakota spirit calling ceremony. Many of the spirits that come in to this ceremony are animal spirits and spirits from the Lakota stories, but those who have passed on, when needed, have come into the ceremony too. My wife's mother came into a yuwipi where we had asked for some help. When I say these spirits come in, I am not talking about someone in a mask like in the native dances in the Southwest, or a knock on a table like a seance. I mean this literally. It is something I can tell you about, but you would have to experience it to really see what I am talking about. It is truly amazing and for a westerner like myself, and even if you believe what you are experiencing, or have no way to disprove it, there is a part of you that is asking how is this happening? What kind of trick is this? And your mind is looking everywhere to try to find a way to figure it out.

The experience with my stepdaughter opened me up to the possibilities of the spirituality that I found later. It was not actually the 'proof' I required. As the years went on and the fact that I had no context to understand it, I was able to rationalize it away or write it off as a weird coincidence. That proof came later for me. But it did get me back on that path of searching, which eventually took me to my proof. But all these experiences and many more tell me that our human selves is more than a physical body and that there is life after death.

Another example of something that happened, occured about a year and a half ago---as my wife was beginning to actually heal. Her brother in the Philippines had gone into a coma. I carry a sacred pipe. My wife was very worried about him and wanted us to pray for him after we got the call from the Philippines. It was early evening and we were alone at the house in our bedroom. My wife has something that was gifted to her that serves as her connection to her ancestors. (The night she got it, she could not sleep---she said all night her mother and her father and others visited her.) So she prayed for her brother with this, and I prayed with the sacred pipe. I loaded it with tobacco with prayers to the 7 sacred directions as I have been taught, and as soon as I lit it, we heard footsteps coming down our hallway, and into our room. My wife said he is here, and I agreed. The only time I experienced his presence was that night as I prayed with the pipe, but he was here with us for a number of days, and my wife could feel and sense his presence. After sometime she started telling him that he had to go home because the family was in the hospital waiting for him. He told her that he was being abused which is why he fell into the coma---he wasn't being fed properly and he was maltreated. This involved some family members and she called them out on that. She kept saying that he didn't want to leave. She finally got the idea of playing a favorite song of his, and so she put it on her phone and told him that he has to go back home now. As soon as the song ended she said that he had left, and it was only a matter of 10 or 15 minutes later that we got the call from the Philippines that he had woken up from the coma.

I wouldn't expect anyone to believe any of these things as they are things that have to be experienced. Even then, if this had happened to me years ago, I would write it off as strange coincidences or a self-induced hypnosis. But for me, they are things that tell me that there is more to reality than the physical realm. My wife is becoming more capable in her healing, or more correctly, as an instrument of God to heal, and while I do not consider myself an instrument of healing by any means, we have learned that it is most effective when we work together. But she only heals family members, and the children of close friends, as it takes a lot of strength out of her to heal.