Who has made it? Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!

u must see this before it's too late

http://www.think-deeply.tk/

 

*reads it*

Sorry, man, but I have to say this, and I'm going to say it rudely.

Anyone who believes in that bullshit is a f***ing idiot.

If Allah is the designer of the universe,
And everything has a designer,
Then answer me this:

Who is the designer of Allah?

And then who is the designer of he who designed Allah?

That manner of thinking is freakin' circular and moronic. Don't let yourself be fooled.

(Edit) No personal offenses intended.

 

Hicky here I present to you a list of those which you qualify as Idiots:
Einstien
Newton
Keppler
Mendel
Galelei
Khwarizmi
Linneus to mention a few...
Do you think that they are idiots, have you ever thought that perhaps it is you who are the duped one?

To answer your question I say;
If we agree that Allah(may he be exalted) is the designer then we automaticly agree that he was not designed, count down from 10 and see where it takes you(remember "0" is nothing)

A: Allah(may he be exalted) exists and B: He says that he is the first and the last, the one without ending nor beginning(it all ends with only "1")
If we believe in A we found ourselves compelled to believe in B aswell.

 

First off, Einstein, Newton, Kepler, and Galilei did not believe in Allah. The others I can't verify, but I know that these few didn't.

And yes, they did believe in a God, but did I say that they used the logic that was posted on this thread? No. Not everything necessarily HAS to have a designer; if Allah doesn't have a designer, then GUESS WHAT, the whole point of this thread was just wrong, and you're not disagreeing with me, you're agreeing with me!

You're proving my point for me! Thank you!

They didn't necessarily believe that "everything" has a creator. Besides, it's possible for any of those great thinkers to have been right or wrong. I'm not saying I'm right either, I'm simply pointing out that your logic is incredibly flawed. None of our thoughts or ideas are any better than the next person's, since there is no evidence at all, which means Einstein doesn't necessarily have a one-up on myself, or on you for that matter. We are all quite equal. =)

I don't agree that he was not designed; don't presuppose facts like that. The point of this thread was that "EVERYTHING" has a designer. Which means that Allah must have one too; please re-read the posts up until this point to stay on track.

Negative One, Negative Two, Negative Three, Negative Four ...

... 0 isn't necessarily the end, and there is no way you can possibly tell me that negative numbers don't exist.

In that case, Allah does NOT have a designer and NOT EVERYTHING HAS A DESIGNER, thanks for arguing my point!

Anyway, I rest my case, at least for now.

 

Starting with the faulty assumption that the universe was designed, one will end up with faulty conclusions.

 

,

You are contradicting yourself, first you claim that they do not believe in God then you say they do? And yes, Newton arguments were very like those posted here, he saw design he concluded that it had a designer, his own words follows as:

"This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. This Being governs all things... as Lord over all, and on account of His dominion. He is wont to be called Lord God, Universal Ruler"(. Principia, Newton, 2nd edition; J. De Vries, Essentials of Physical Science, B. Eerdmans Pub.Co., Grand Rapids, SD, 1958, p.15)

Keppler said:

"I had the intention of becoming a theologian... but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for 'heavens declare the glory of God'(Johannes Kepler, quoted in: J.H. Tiner, Johannes Kepler-Giant of Faith and Science (Milford, Michigan: Mott Media, 1977), p. 197)

Einstein did also believe in God aswell:
"I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame"(. Science, Philosophy and Religion, A Symposium, published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941)
You are loosing credability, get your facts right.

Do me a favor and walk to a fruit shop and try bying (-2) apples and see what it costs you or draw me a circle with the area of 0cm2, do not pretend that you did not understand. At last only the number "1" remains!

I see your point and I don't see any real reason to argue with you.

 

I am sorry ... I do not usually say things like this, but ...

You are a fucking idiot.

I said they do not believe in ALLAH. That is not to say they don't believe in ANY god. Please read what I am saying from now on, not what you are interpreting me to be saying.

And all of the other things you quoted, I REALIZE THAT THEY ALL BELIEVE IN *A* GOD, BUT NONE BELIEVED IN "ALLAH" AS ISLAM DEFINED.

You will have to pardon my lack of patience for people who do not read what I say, or interpret things like "Allah" to mean a god in general. Even if you truly believe that "Allah" is the alpha and omega, Allah is the name of A god; Allah may be the only god that exists, but that is not to say that other gods have not been suggested, and that the term "god" with a lowercase g refers to ANY deity that has been suggested to exist.

And even in the quotes you pasted, there is no mention of "Allah," only "God" with a capital G.

If I buy two apples, that's like saying, I gained 2 apples and lost 2 dollars.

If I buy negative two apples, that's like saying, I sold 2 apples, and gained 2 dollars.

In any kind of mathematics, 2 - 2 can be written as "2 + (-2)" and vice versa. Likewise, you can rewrite "buy negative 2 apples" as "sell 2 apples," which is easily possible, and would result in a negative loss (which also can be written as a "profit").

And any geometry teacher can draw you a circle with an area of 0 cm^2. All you have to do is walk up to the board, and do nothing. Circles with 0 cm^2 do not need to be drawn, because no marks have to be written to draw them.

Now, I will concede to you the fact that you can't draw a circle with a radius of -1 in conventional mathematics. However, that is because the length of any line is an *absolute value,* which means, if you take the coordinates of the beginning of the line, and subtract them from the coordinates of the end of the line, and then take away any negative signs which result, you will be left with a positive number, called the length.

That is the distance, or displacement, between the two points. Distance can never be negative, distance is defined as a difference (implying subtraction), and subtracting a negative number is equivalent to adding the number (yielding a positive number). So fundamentally, the concept of drawing a radius of -1 is impossible, because a radius of -1 cannot exist, as we have defined it.

It could be said similarly that a radius of -1 can exist, but that it would be drawn exactly the same as you would draw a radius of +1. Rather, the "difference between the start of the radius and end of the radius" would be -1, but since radii are defined as absolute values of that difference, the "radius" would be 1. It all comes down to losing numerical precision, kind of like chopping off the first bit in a byte, and calling it an "unsigned" number (which assumes that it is positive). Absolute values aren't really "numbers," because they lack the precision that positive or negative numbers have; the precision to discern between positive or negative is what I am referring to.

--

Also, believe me, I don't mean to insult your religion or your personal belief in Allah; it is just as acceptable as other people's belief in God, my "belief" if you'll call it that, in Gaia, or an atheist's belief in nothing.

But if you are arriving at your conclusions using the logic that started this thread, you should really reconsider your faith. I don't know whether there is a designer or not, and I don't know if things keep going on for infinity; nor do I honestly care. But I don't like when people spew propaganda that offers flawed logic, in order to persuade people to take up their cause. It's my choice and the choices to others to be saved; I will discuss it if asked kindly, but propaganda that is thrown out there just to convert people is outright annoying. I'm sure you can understand my feelings about that, especially if I started trying to convert you.

 

Allah is Arabic for God. Essentially, they're the same person, just like the Jewish God is no different than the Christian God. All 3 are different interpretations of basically the same thing (so... oversimplifying it alot, Islam and Christianity could almost been seen as radical sects of Judaism centuries removed).

But... just as any hardcore religious site, this one just makes me laugh (again).

Islam is a very beautiful religion culture-wise however. Just once the actual faith part comes in, I'm gone.

 

It satisfy me that atleast 1 person understands(or as most likley the other way around, everbody understands except hikky). To the extent of my knowledge most of them were christians!!!(except Einstein and Khwarizmi)Mendel was even a munk

KEPPELER EVEN WROTE: "Who gave white bears and white wolves to the snowy regions of the North, and a food for the bears the whale, and for the wolves, birds' eggs?" asked Kepler and then replied: "Great is our Lord and great His virtue and of his wisdom there is no number: praise Him, ye heavens, praise Him, ye sun, moon, and planets, use every sense for perceiving, every tongue for declaring your Creator. Praise Him, ye celestial Harmonies, praise Him, ye judges of the Harmonies uncovered: and thou my soul, praise the Lord thy Creator, as long as I shall be: for out of Him and through Him and in Him are all things, both the sensible and the intelligible; for both whose whereof we are utterly ignorant and those which we know are the least part of them; because there is still more beyond. To him be praise, honor, and glory, world without end."

.NEWTON WROTE: .."He (God) is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is …eternal and infinite; …he endures and is present. He endures forever, and is everywhere present; and, by existing always and everywhere, he constitutes duration and space... We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things... [W]e reverence and adore him as his servants…"

Look at your words:"did not believe in Allah."
Arabs say Allah while jews say Elohim and christians say God/The father, all 3 of them are talking about the lord of Moses and the Lord of Adam(peace be upon them)! For the second time now; get your facts right.

Are you teaching me simple math? You are missing my point, trying holding (-1) apple in your hand, you can´t! In reality, it ends with 1.
Now I dont have anything against discussing with people who are agnostic, atheist or what ever you are as I like discussing with people like Occam. He has 3 qualities(or atleast some of these 3 qualities) and you are lacking them all, a) You are extremley self-deluded and arrogant which compells you to call people idiots even though you are the one who is incorrect. b) You have no patience what so ever. c) You like speaking without knowledge and it's almost impossible to respond to such an ignorance.

And when they hear evil vain talk, they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not (the way of) the ignorant.[Quran Qasas]

 

I kinda think about it like this.

If the only reason to live, is to make sure ur species survives a nother generation, then what is the beauty in that?? Where is the art?

I believe in a Creator, and have faith because if gives purpose, if I am wrong then it will not matter, but if I am right then, my purpose will be fulfilled and I will see whats on the other side.

If it wasnt for the idea of a Deity then our civilization would not be here, ancient man would have never really bothered looking into the heavens and wondering about the god(s) that may have existed.

Our ideas of a creator is what seperates man from animal. Whether it be Jesus, Allah, Ra, Apollo, Brahma, or just simply God, its what makes us who we are, and we should not forget that.

 

So be it. This is assuming we are talking about "Yaweh," then (which is supposed to be the god that both the Bible and Koran (sp?) refer to). I admit I am no Christian or Islamic scholar, but there have been SO many times where I have been arguing with either a Christian or a Muslim, and they have referred to God and Allah as separate entities. Come to think of it, I don't think I've EVER argued with someone who considers them to be the same entity. So I suppose I must concede this to you; I mean that Einstein and Newton were Christian, and not Muslim. Since when I argue with a typical uneducated person, this causes a lot of controversy as to "who believes in which God," I'm used to arguing that way to make things simple.

Well if you want to get technical, I can hold a "-1 apple" in my hand by holding an apple made out of antimatter (although that would have dire consequences, considering that on contact with anything, it would violently explode with tons more force than a nuclear bomb). Were I a "-1 human" though, and what I mean is, if I were made out of antimatter, I could hold the antimatter apple just fine; antiparticle physics tells us this. Just because we are made out of the equivalent of "positive" matter, doesn't mean that "negative" matter can't exist. When matter is created from raw energy, two equal particles in two opposite directions are created, and when they rejoin, the process is called "annihilation," and 0 results from it. So in order to take something "an apple" and get nothing, you need to add an antimatter apple ("a negative apple"), and sure enough you will end up with nothing in your hands. Beyond that, from the perspective of a human made out of antimatter, a "negative apple" would be what we consider to be a normal apple. So yes, it IS possible to hold a negative apple in your hands. It would just be very dangerous, because we are made from "positive" matter.

In response to (a), first off, scroll up, boy. You insulted ME first. The person who posted the original thread, was posting a thread that insulted people who don't believe in a God, or don't believe things a certain way. I told him off, which I have every right to do, considering it's quite insulting to me; it's more bullshit propaganda that is annoying, misleading, and circular.

Then, you came in, and took it upon yourself to stand up for this person by INSULTING ME. I did absoutely nothing to provoke you, you just up and suggested that I was an idiot. So don't you go talking about who is arrogant and who isn't. Yes, I do defend myself quite vigourously when I am insulted, but you know what, I have a darn good right to do so, and if you don't like it, well, that's your problem, not mine. Even Occam will defend himself if insulted, like any other person, save maybe Ghandi; and I don't claim to be as great or as wise as Ghandi.

In response to (b), you are correct. I don't have any patience, and I'll be the first to admit it. I only have a short life, you know. =P

In response to (c), I am speaking with all of the knowledge I have gathered during my short time on this planet. When I speak with other people with similar knowledge, they don't have any problems with my information. You seem to have quite a bit of problems with it; and if my knowledge is so wrong or misleading, why ISN'T yours? Your thoughts on this forum are at least as deranged as you claim mine to be; especially with you defending the viewpoint of the original poster at first. If I am wrong about the issue, why did you concede?

Quite honestly, if you DON'T see my logic here, then I'd like to know what information leads you to arrive at a different conclusion than I do.

 

welllllll...

the "old one" that albert einstein obliquely referred to on occasion (if he took it seriously) would have little in common with the typical theological presentations of yahweh, the father-god (or the son-god, or the holyspirit-god), or allah...
one often gets the impression the dr einstein was speaking allegorically when refering to "god" - although being quite seious when insisting on the need for "a religious sense" - but i suspect the einstein's god was closer to spinoza's or the late carl sagan's than to the god of abraham, isaac, jacob, jesus, muhammed, or others who speak out of the abrahamic tradition...
oh, & einstein was "jewish" enough to be a wanted man in hitler's germany - a lot of good german (& non-german) jews were driven out (or escaped) from europe during the 30s as hitler's plans were realizied...
~~~
most scientists & logicians would suggest that the "argument from design" in support of some "creationist"-type explanation of current biological diversity and "the origin of species" (as old charlie once wrote) is, well, specious (at best)... heh...

 

I´ve read about this antimatter thing, quite interesting but totally insignificant right now and you are missing the point. If you hold an apple made out of antimatter you are still holding 1 apple! You cannot go beyond this, part the apple with a knife and you have two parts, count its molmass or its atoms if you so want, do what ever pleases you but you will still not go beneath 1, it ends there(You are taking it to deep man, my argument is at a very low level).

You may found it annoyin, misleading and circular but insulting?, I'm pretty sure the authors intention was not to insulte you, but your post however was clearly provoking by saying: "Anyone who believes in that bullshit is a f***ing idiot"
Now that is how you insult someone.

For the record I did not insult you(even though your post was insulting), I said that "perhaps you are the duped one", I never called you an idiot as you claim, one can become duped and that would still not necessarily make him an idiot.
"I did absoutely nothing to provoke you" Yes you did by calling me a f***ing idiot.

Signs of scientific knowledge are very appearent in your posts and I´m not one who denies this but I do think that you entered this discussion with inadequate information, for instance when I wrote Allah you misinterpreted me and thought that I was speaking of another god, I think it is basic knowledge to know that muslims which make up 1/6 of the world population worship the same God as the children of Israel did.

By the way, Einstein was a jew and not a christian, now this is also common knowledge.

 

No, see, the *absolute value* of the antimatter apple would be "one apple," but the actual value of an antimatter apple would be the equivalent of a negative apple. Yes, they are both still in the QUANTITY of 1, but you cannot say that they are EQUAL, as they are apples made of different types of matter (negative versus positive). It's like the saying, you can't compare apples to oranges; you can say you have 1 apple or 1 orange, but you lose precision if you just say you have "1." Likewise, you lose precision if you say "1 apple" instead of "1 matter apple" or "1 antimatter apple."

By your logic, if I hold an apple in my hand made out of matter, then it is absolutely no different if I hold an apple in my hand made out of antimatter. But hold one made of antimatter in reality, and you will soon discover that you were quite wrong about them being the same.

You think things end at 0 because you are failing to see that reality is much more precise than simple absolute values; there is a whole other spectrum which you need to discover before you can create equations that are both accurate and precise, and perhaps even more spectra beyond that which none of us thought existed; who knows? But it's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

And I meant to insult the poster too, that I won't hide. I think everyone who tries to convert people to their religion using propaganda that has flawed logic deserves to be insulted. And if I did the same, I would want someone to call ME an idiot.

And yeah, it's insulting, you're suggesting that I'm an idiot, and conveniently taking a list of highly reputable names and putting words into my mouth that *I* am calling *them* idiots. I'd darn well say that's an insult, or at least a feeble attempt at one.

Perhaps you should post under the same name then, so we all know who is talking to whom? We could have made a lot of headway in this argument if you weren't busy shapechanging here (don't take that as an insult, I mean that in a joking light). =P

And if that is the case, yes, you are an idiot, *as you have already conceded about the circular logic posted in the original post*. And I could call you a slew of other names, for even posting that to begin with. It's rude, it's cocky, and it is, by your own admission, illogical. It warrants an insult.

Perhaps, but keep in mind, everyone's exacting interpretation of a deity is different. Because of that, there are many differences in the way people view "God" of the Bible, and "Allah" of the Koran (sp?). For crying out loud, Christians and Muslims have been fighting against eachother for ages, each in the name of "their" god, to convert the followers of the "other" god.

Ask a typical Christian if they believe that Allah is their god; I would bet you that they'd say, "no." I KNOW that they would say no, I (unfortunately) used to BE one, and they are quite ignorant.

So it is not hard to see, by any means, why "God" and "Allah" could be considered two separate and differing entities.

My mistake. I bet he wasn't a fundamentalist, though. I admit I never studied any of the people you listed closely.

 

Just want to clear things up here. Stop being stupid. Non sequiturs aside....

Calling someone who doesn't believe in God stupid is like calling a 6 year old who doesn't understand calculus stupid.

 

*read the first two paragraphs of it*


Who has made it? Have you seen a design which hasn't a designer ?!






Do you think a God exist that's so powerfull that he is in control of ALL of this?
or that something is creating such different contrast of beauty and suffering to prove 'his' existence, or non-existence?

we were all initiated by a miracle of nature.
and a miracle of life is much easier to believe in than some type of super powerfull creator that's intentionally manipulating everything that takes place on this earth, will also be in control of my other forms of life.

Islam is right for trying to bring down, or out a God...
but they are as far as most of the other religions from being 'right' about God.

 

Just wanted to apologize to whoever this comment offended. I was just trying to point out that it was stupid to distract from the main topic with non sequiturs such as Hikaru Zero was doing. Changing the focus of the argument doesn't solve or prove anything about the main topic.

Sometimes I assume people will understand what I am talking about without adequately explaining my comments (which is why my math teacher's used to yell at me- show your work).

I apologize once again,

Kharakov

(I thought that comment "Just who do you think you are" was hilarious, in light of my new sig)

 

In the start of this discussion, there was the argument something like 'If God created the universe then who created God'. So there's not really a starting point BUT then can't the same be said about evolution theory? What happened before the bug bang? and before that? And before that...etc.

 

Just a thought, but why, if you assume that the universe has a designer, do you believe that it's the one that you believe in? What makes you think you have any idea of how this "designer" works and who he/she/it is?

 

Out of infinite eternity (God) emerged a set of laws that gave rise to hope for eternal joy. I hope that the infinite has the awareness to preserve and teach our finite selves to live joyfully for eternity instead of being a blind set of physical laws.