Know any good techniques to argue for vegetarianism??

I think you will find that there are people, wether vegan or meat eaters that eat healthily or don't...this is far more important in terms of health than wether they eat meat or not...there are plenty of unhealthy examples of both out there that you can both pull out to prove each other wrong but there are also plenty of healthy eaters out there and I definitely have never seen either meat eater or vegan of them suffering from a lack of anything.....If someone chooses to eat meat or doesn't it is their own choice...what you choose is more important I think and tells me more about you than what you think of what others do...

oohhh..now I have confuddled myself so I will leave it here!!

 

Famous vegetarians. (all on their death beds ? I don't think so..some have departed..but...not from lack of gnawing animal flesh)

http://www.soystache.com/famousaz.htm

 

Okay. Let's see.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/iron.html

Excerpt: "Good sources of iron for vegetarians include wholegrain cereals and flours, leafy green vegetables, blackstrap molasses, pulses such as lentils and kidney beans, and some dried fruits."

Excerpt: "Despite iron from plant foods being less readily absorbed research has shown that vegetarians are no more likely to suffer from iron deficiency than non-vegetarians."

Clearly you don't know what the heck you're talking about. Vegetables and grains contain PLENTY of iron; you wouldn't need to supplement iron by any means. Here are additional resources about iron:

http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/dietiron.html

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm

(Excerpt from the last link: "Vegetarians do not have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than do meat eaters.")

http://www.mamashealth.com/nutrition/anemia.asp

According to various sources, anemia is a condition of low iron content in the blood stream, resulting in a decrease in red blood cells. However, this occurs ONLY if not enough iron is consumed. While meat is rich in iron, SO ARE VEGETABLES, so it makes NO difference whatsoever, unless you're vegan and you happen to dislike vegetables, in which case you should not be a vegan for your own sake.

And I know plenty of vegans, thank you.

This is for the most part true, and no vegan will tell you otherwise. But keep in mind: The only major vitamins and/or minerals that vegans develop a deficiency for in a typical vegan diet are protein and vitamin B-12 (that is to say, a deficiency that is more than the average American's deficiency in various vitamins and such). It is also recommended to take vitamin C to help promote iron absorbtion into the body. Protein can be found in many natural non-animal sources; a vegan diet that has variance in what it consumes will easily get enough protein by consuming tofu, soymilk, or any kind of soy-based product for that matter. In addition, hemp seed is a VERY good source of protein as well, and a SINGLE HANDFUL per day will give a vegan all the protein they need. My source from this is ... http://www.cannabis.com/faqs/ .

In addition, some vegan sources also contain vitamin B-12. But it is every vegan's duty to find out what sources contain it and what sources don't, and to vary your diet accordingly.

Sources:

http://members.aol.com/docvegan/_vegansupplementsnutrients.html

http://www.veganpeace.com/veganism/eating_vegan.htm

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/vegan-nutrition.html

Beyond that, there are other vitamins and minerals which SHOULD be supplemented, but are not necessarily a serious problem; they are not any more of a problem than the deficiency of vitamins and minerals in a typical American diet, or even in other diets, for that matter.

And about your scientific journals about veganism being good for body and soul; those were my words based on my conclusion, but I will find what you ask regardless of whether or not I said them or someone else did. So here you go:

http://www.vegan.org.nz/hep.php

(Excerpt: "In another example of nutritional epidemiology, the Oxford Vegetarian Study has found that consumption of eggs, cheese, total animal fat, saturated fat and dietary cholesterol each significantly increase the death rate from ischaemic heart disease and that non-meat-eaters have a 20% lower death rate from all causes than do meat-eaters.4")

http://www.vegetarian-diet.info/vegetarian-diet-health.htm

(Excerpt: "A well-planned vegetarian diet can be a healthy alternative for people of all ages, according to a joint statement from the American Dietetic Association (ADA) and Dietitians of Canada that appears in the June issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association.")

And about the soul thing ... while there will be FEW experts that will disagree with me, I'm not going to bother backing it up, because I am basing that conclusion off of my own results. As a vegan, I have noticed a considerable increase in my mental and emotional well-being thanks to veganism; not necessarily because my body is feeling any better (although it is), but primarily because, as a moral and honourable person who seeks to do what is right, it makes me feel good that I have a certain moral consistancy about me; I feel glad that I am not a hypocrite, and that I'm doing the right thing.

Now then ... that's settled ...

You feel happy because you are positively influencing your own existance, as well as the existances of various humans and countless animals. I'd call that "right." =)

 

why bother to argue you are what you are. stop trying to change me.

 

i eat healthier food when i eat than i did before. my eating patterns are still the same though because of my work schedule so they aren't that great, but i eat a variety of veggies and grains (i am lacto ovo not vegan, but i don't rely on / use this as a source) i no longer eat frozen mixed veggies and cheap greasy hamburger, chicken pieces, sausages or pork chops etc. like i did before. this is what alot of the people i know eat and i can't see this as being healthier diet because it contains meat. and isn't alot of the iron lost when the meat / food is cooked?

 

Dude, good effort on the long post! I'd be WAY too lazy to post all those links.

You're obviously smart enough to realise that I could provide links to journal articles which present conclusions that conflict with those of your links, but, from my experience, this is pointless, becuase, if they even read it, most vegies just dismiss it all. It's very hard to change your mind on something you feel so strongly about.

Do you concede that there's plenty of conflicting, credible science out there? If so (which I think you should), there's no point us getting into an "arms race", ping-ponging stats at each other -- it's boring.


Here's a couple of general tips: if you wanna present info to impartial moderates, such as myself, or (especially) conservatives, it's best not to cite pro-vegy or pro-vegan sites; many will just dismiss it, but I'm too cool for that.:sunglasse And I definitely wouldn't be citing any pro-cannabis sites. What would one of your lecturers say if you sourced a dope-smoking site as scientific evidence? CAAARMON!! DUUUUUUDE. It's best to cite impartial sources.



A couple of specifics:

This might sound nitpicky, but, while plant foods do contain iron, they do not contain "plenty", and they are not "rich sources" (your link to the "iron content" table indicates this). One of the problems is (as I think you mentioned) the absorption of iron. Heme iron is absorbed at a rate of ~23%, but, if not carefully combined with absorption enhancers such as Vit C,
non-heme iron is absorbed at rates as low as 2%. (1)

Did you guys have those "pro beef" ads on TV, which showed how much spinach you'd have to eat to get a certain amount of iron? Funny stuff. The point is, you DO have to eat stacks more plant food to get to necessary iron.

Quote: "every vegan's duty". Very good point. What concerns me is that many vegans do not adhere to this 'duty', and plod along thinking that they can thrive on only lentils and tofu.
Vit B12 is my real worry:

"Extensive research shows that the amounts listed on lables of plant products are innaccurate and misleading, because the B12 is in in an innactive form. Vegans need a relieable source, such as fortified soy milk..(2)

"People who stop eating B12 can take up to 20 years to develop deficiencies(2)


Sat fats:


You may find this hard to believe (i did at first), but there's some (mostly) new research indicating that saturated fats are actually NOT the culprit when it comes to heart disease, but other factors such as the absence of antioxidants, 'modern' Na/K ratio, high glycaemic foods, and homocystiene elevation. If you promise to read some of the stuff with an open mind, i might even post a link. The amusing thing about this is that some scientists are suggesting that Dr Atkins was on the right track, but because he was primarily promoting weight loss, he went too far on the zero to low carbs thing.


As a 3rd year nutrition undergraduate, I hereby anoint YOU as the Guardian Angel of the Hippy Forum, and you must therefore educate your fellows on the importance of B12 and iron absorption


ref:

1. Whitney, E.N. & Rolfes, S.R. (1999). Understanding Nutrition, pp 407, Eighth
Edition, West-Wadsworth, USA.

2. Whitney, E.N. & Rolfes, S.R. (1999). Understanding Nutrition, pp 313, Eighth
Edition, West-Wadsworth, USA.

 

and citing pro beef ads as evidence in your argument makes it better than him citing pro veggie sites!!! mmm...beef promotions are in no way going to be biased are they!!!

c'mon...eat mushrooms for b12 and eat green stuff for iron and you'll be fine...and not too much coffee as this made me anaemic once, however since I stopped caning coffee I have never had a problem...you want to eat meat..fine, but why are you feeling the need to pick an argument with someone who wants to not eat meat, you shouldn't feel like you have to justify your decision to those who have a different view....
and studying nutrition does not make one an expert in vegetarianism...traditionally nutritionists have been anti anything but meat and three veg (I know..my aunty was one years ago..). There are a lot of nutritionists out there in the world who have no idea of how to eat healthily...people are discussing this in the parenting thread too....
and lastly have you ever been to the toilet after someone who is on Atkins....after that experience no one will ever convince me that they are doing themselves any good whatsoever!!!
:X

 

but this doesn't neccessarily mean that if you are a meat eater you are any healthier or higher in your levels of iron, calcium, b12's. like i said, before i went veg my diet was crap white bread food., alot of people eat like this, especially if they are in the lower income bracket. they aren't eating good meat and veggies, they eat junk food, packaged and processed to death. people worry about the vegans / vegetarians but they don't look at their own diets and wonder at what they are or aren't putting into their bodies.

 

who is funding the nutritionists / researchers both for your texts, and pro beef ads, and the veggie sites hikaru sited? a slant is going to be there, either way.

 

I wasn't presenting that as "evidence" (i don't know how you've drawn that conclusion), I presented it as a an amusing, and vague reference to the descrepency in iron content of plant vs animal food. If I was presetning evidence, I would've cited a reference

This is true. Coffee depletes the body of some micronutrients, including iron

I don't believe I'm "picking an argument"; i thought this was a "discussion" forum. It really worries me that young, impressionable people are endangering their health with incorrect information such as the B12 myth you've stated. If I can save the health of a few people, then 'my work here is done'

Unfortunately this is also true. Many nutritionists go through the motions of their career without really caring about what they do.

If you read what I wrote, I suggested that Aktins may have been on the right track, but he went WAY TOO FAR. To exclude almost all fibre and carbohydrates (esp fruits and vegies) is ludicrious. The fact is, we didn't evolve on a low fat, high carbohydrate diet.

This is probably the most dangerous pieces of misinformation proliferated amongst the vegetarian community. It mostly comes from the fact that most Indians (vegetarians) do not experience B12 deficiencies. This is because they get their B12 from contaminated plant foods, such as mushrooms, that have been slightly tainted by animal dung based fertilizers. The animal poo contains enough B12. We in the western world adhere to much more sanitary fertilizing techniques, therefore our mushrooms don't have the B12 that the "third world" countries mushrooms have. The dangerous thing about B12 defiency is that it can take 20 years for damage to be done. Vit B12 is crucial for the maintenence of the myelin sheath surrounding nerves. If this is degenerated over a prolonged period, it cannot be repaired (not yet, at least), and a MS like conditon develops.


Trust me, it's true. Surely it couldn't hurt you to take a B12 supplement, or cosume some foods fortified with B12.

I CARE ABOUT YOUR HEALTH:sunglasse

 

Ah, the "the whole world is against us" conspiracy theory.

You'd be naive to think that there's not plenty of pro-vegy funded research going on too, along with pro-dairy, pro-beef, and pro-wheat. There's plenty of money made by vegy companies, as there obviously is in the beef and dairy world.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of tainted research around, so you've gotta be careful sifting through all the crap.

To form educated, impartial views, it's best to source your information from the "usually" unbiased stuff found on university sites and in scientific journals, not pro-vegy or pro-beef web pages.

 

my point exactly.

 

So, would you then concede that there's some (or plenty of) tainted, pro-vegy information out there along with tainted pro-beef and
pro-dairy info? I would.

Anyway, it's 5pm, sunny and 80 degress down here, so I'm going for a bike ride. I'll try to pop back later.

 

well of course. pretty much all information anywhere you go is tainted to some degree. researchers, govts, nutritionists, blablabla are all paid by someone. vegetarian research will favour vegism, just like omni is pro meat. for this reason i was trying to point out in previous posts that just being a meat eater or a vegetarian doesn't make you healthier. you always need to look at the big picture.

 

Yeah, well, I was pretty lazy ... I just hit up google and used the most recent results. I could have gone out and really gone crazy, but I think I'd rather wait until I have to do a research paper, then do it on veganism, and just cite that (which in turn will have properly impartial citations).

Certainly; I'm sure that I have some biased information, as does everyone, yourself included (unless you want to refute that ...).

Either way, I don't think there is a real point to hashing out the details about what needs to or doesn't need to be supplemented. A good vegan will take multivitamin supplements just for good measure alone and consume protein-rich foods. I've already conceded that it is important to supplement, as the diet is not exactly the most convenient or natural to the body.

The human body IS geared towards processing both meat and plant material (though I'd like to think more towards plant material than the former), but I think that we, as beings, have (or should have) reached a mental state that exceeds our physical attributes, where we no longer NEED to eat meat to survive, and we CAN eat healthier diets and get the right supplements; thus a vegan diet would be appropriate, in my opinion. Especially when balancing the feelings/rights of animals out with bodily convenience.

Oh, and the cannabis source ... yeah, I figured you'd have something to say about that, but I did a LOT of research on the FAQ, and all of the sources cited by the FAQ are from either impartial sources or the government itself, so I've already determined its accuracy (half the things they said in there I didn't believe myself until I researched it).

I am curious to know as to what the non-heme iron absorbtion high rate is. =P Certainly it could go that low in some people, but I wonder what the norm is, and the high as well. The data from that statement isn't precise enough to make a sound judgment on.

Didn't have them, but I do know that as a vegan, I tend to eat a LOT more vegetable matter than I'd eat meat when I was still an omnivore. At lunch/dinner, even when I'm not hungry, I can still go up for plate after plate of food, even up to 3 full plates at at time, while still maintaining (a record) 130 lbs. That alone is unhealthy, but I've just noticed that my weight hasn't been dramatically affected even though I eat a ton more now.

[/QUOTE]Quote: "every vegan's duty". Very good point. What concerns me is that many vegans do not adhere to this 'duty', and plod along thinking that they can thrive on only lentils and tofu.[/QUOTE]

True enough, though a vegan which doesn't do their research and learn these things for themselves isn't exactly a vegan in the full sense of the word, in the same way that a lacto-ovo-vegetarian isn't a full-fledged vegetarian.

This wouldn't be news to me. You see, my father apparently has a pretty serious affliction with Candida Albicans (you've probably heard about it somehwere), and it nearly killed him a few years ago. Now, from his new, er -- health crusade, as it were, I've learned quite a bit about vitamins and minerals, and diets in general. For that reason, I try to drink green tea and other teas very often (high antioxidant content ), especially since I'm a computer programmer, and antioxidants are a good safeguard against carpal tunnel syndrome. My father is also hypoglycaemic, so I know a few things about that as well (though not too much).

I don't know about the Atkins diet though. He may have been onto something, maybe not, I never really heard anything either way.

Why thank you. =) As a 1st year computer science graduate, I'll gather the e-mail addresses of all Hip Forums members, and write a program to send out an e-mail every day with the importance of such absorption. (Just kidding ... that'd be spam. )

I'm interested in how much you know about Candida Albicans, if you've ever heard of it. Most doctors and nutritionists that I've known weren't ever even educated enough to know its existance, let alone the fact that it's in about 1 out of every 2 people, in some way or another, and is a major factor in acne. =P

Yeah, don't worry, this isn't an argument. A lot of people seem to mistake, shall we say, passionate discussions, for heated arguments. =P But arguing is our way of weeding out the false and misguided within us, no?

Either way, I think it is a sound conclusion that a proper vegan diet, supplements, warts, and all, is a better, more logical, and more morally consistant choice all-around than most diets, especially the typical American diet. It is less convenient in many ways, and more difficult to lead, but I think we'd all be much better off if more people were vegan and less people ate meat.

Granted that many veggie-people don't follow that robust a vegan diet, which can lead to more deficiencies and a health condition that all-around does not improve much, but I think out of both diets' ideal plans, the vegan one would win by far.

 

sorry, thought you were using the pro beef ads as evidence but then when I read back I see you didn't really say evidence..you just used them as an example of what you were trying to say...fair enough but I still found them to be innaccurate and biased in their presentation of the facts.

Caffeine actually inhibits the absorption of vitamin c which aids iron absorption, rather than depleting it of things it is inhibiting...as does smoking and a multitude of other stuff...anyhow thats arguing about the splitting of hairs aint it!! I think we can agree that too much caffeine is bad for ya!

The B12 stuff I don't know about...ummm...what you said rings some bells about what I have read before and hikaru seems pretty happy to admit that b12 substitutes may be needed in a vegan diet so I will leave it to you two to "discuss" it out...thanks for working your ideas out in front of us. Seems to me that you are both actually arguing from the same side of the fence!!!

 

I'm, a caring guy. I care about YOUR HEALTH

YES!! It's already put a smile on my face.

 

No worries, as we say down here.

I thought I might've been able to discuss things on this forum in a haphazard way, but to present information as fact, it's difficult to do so without citing reputable references, which I think is beyond my level of laziness. So, if I mysteriously go missing, that's why: I don't have the time to spend 45 mins on each post, presenting it as a properly referenced "essay"

 

hfgfghfgh ooops.....EDIT