the four sampradayas are all in agreement and therefore not necessarily different schools of thought...the different sampradayas share much thought and personalities ... four kumaras for example are accepted my all as great mahajanas... the sampradayas are ancient discplic succession lines of initiation into bhakti yoga and chanting of which initiation is important
sad but sometimes true but those who strive for deeper understanding see no differences between teachers...only simpletons see conflice and hence confusion
i would say my first and foremost intention is "buyer beware" if anyone thinks they can just chant, shave their head, run around in peach bed sheets and be a surrendered follower and all will be happy...you may be in for some great unpleasantness become intelligent as well as listen to the deeeeeeeeeeeepest intuitions of your heart in deciding your spiritual life become aware of the historical dysfunctionalness of spiritual institutionalism
I was never a fan of organized religion in the first place...so being picky was never my bag...you've heard me say it once and I'll say it again...that all religions are fundimentally the same and that it is through our culture that they have become different...by saying that I'm a Christian Hare Krishna...I'm saying that I follow both the words of Christ and recognize him as the son of God while recognizing Sri Krisna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead...I follow both customs because I wasn't just satisfied as one...and that and chanting has made me happier and I think a better person...I don't really get the other things...and I understand that you were just trying to warn me or make me aware of them...but in the long run...I kinda agree with Kumar and Bhaskar....but thank you CheifCowPie for making me aware nonetheless
Chief - do you mean then that you think these vaishnavas who act thus are simpletons? I fear you may be right. Only one qualification - when you say that those who strive for a deeper understanding see no difference between teachers - it is necessary to see the difference between truly realized teachers and those who hold their positions falsely or who are simply charlatans. Where apointee 'spiritual masters' in ISKCON are concerned for example, some of them have in effect misled their followers knowingly, and betrayed the trust placed in them. Therefore, I think some degree of discrimination must be in order, especially for those who are young, often gulible, and lack experience.
When chief said teacher, I am certain he meant a true guru who has had a direct experience of the Highest truth and therefore can guide us to that state. Thank you for your informative posts chief, although I have attended bhagavat saptah with my guru, it was more of an outpouring of devotion, narrating the stories of various avatars, etc rather than a scholarly analysis. After all, bhagavatam was written with that in mind. The story runs that Vyasa was depressed having written the vedas and other texts of very hgh intellectual calibre, he was still not satisfied. That is when Narada muni met him and he was insired to write Srimad Bhagavatam as a totaqlly devotional text, after which he found he was fulfilled. Therefore I have focussed more on those lines in my study of bhagavatam, so I dont know much of the sects and initiations. I am a shaivite anyway, so it doesnt really matter to me. The hindu literature available is an ocean of nectar, we cannot drink it all, not in several births. This is why we have gurus, who give us chosen loving spoonfuls of these works as the disciple requires. As for what Billblack said, the trouble is not in following different paths, different schools of thought. The trouble is when you start saying my way is the only way, all others are false. The trouble starts when you belittle other faiths and look down on them. The strife begins when you lose sight of the fact that all these roads lead to the same final summit.
join the thread in the Philosophy& Religion category. If you don't divide why are you discussing hare krishna behind my back? -lol. Hare Krishna is not a religion. And to chant is enough -it's just a trick the cheaters use in order to get you. Just see no mentioning of Srila Prabhupada, no mentioning of hare Krishna mantra. Don't listen to Chief Cow Pie , he's not any authority for saying anything about Krishna consciousness. just read Prabhupada's books and chant:
awwwwww shucks... sleeping jiva caught us...now we have to find somewhere else to talk behind his back
Donna, Here is a concise summary that places in a logical context of religious thinking, the great majority of Eastern philosophies, theologies, and ancient sciences. Remember that everything is always true and false at the same time, simply choose your reference frame to get the notion and the 'truth' you want. Since all notions and physicality arise from, and arrive at, the same place, once even the simplist of reference frames is presumed, their grows an infinite hierarchy of relationships, from the complex to the simple, from the personal to the impersonal, from the finite to the infinte, and so on. Considering this, the substantive notions of religion generally embody a framework of dimensional 'collapse', or perhaps better described as reduction to one or several simple notions (or you may call them 'presumptions' or 'faith's). This framework of 'collapse' may be more or less well-formed, and may or may not have many non-secutors. But, the key is that it is a framewrok of reasoning which collapses to several notions. As a general rule, when such systems of thinking are formed, refined, and spread, the ones which were originally sourced in the most primitive of parameters, tend to become highly refined systems of thinking, with many blanks filled in, and present a highly abstract and transcendental explanation of life and existence. Note that the self-reflective property of consciouness is again at work here.....when you start with something simple, an interative process of reflection generates complexity along with the highly abstract and transcendental notions needed to explain the complexity. In the case of Eastern knowledge systems , they are derived originally from Vedic culture, which is sourced in the simplist of parameters....consciouness, your body, awareness, your environment, and your perceptions. This was a time when the notions of religion and science were not disparate. Separation of these two ocurred several thousand years later in western culture. (there are also several other parallels to this evolution on other isolated continents based on other systems of knowledge...e.g. Australia for example). Hence we have the highly 'impersonal' structure of Eastern knowledge systems arising from, and based on, highly 'personal' and subjective parameters like consciousness. Christianity is the antithesis of this (i.e. the 'reflection') of this structure. It is the highly 'personal' structure arising from, and based on, highly 'impersonal' parameters like recorded 'objective' events in history. So, Donna, take your pick.....everything is both true and false....... Bob
Where Krishna consciousness is concerned,this too is purportedly based on 'historical ' events - ie the incarnation of Sri Krishna. We may believe these events to be purely mythical, but the orthodox believer does not. The stories of the puranas are taken as histories. Really there is great similarity in many ways between the accounts of Christ and Krishna, the main difference being the sacrificial death idea in christianity. One further point - where our mental knowledge goes, yes - nothing is absolutely true. But the vedas teach of a higher mode of knowledge, above the limitations of intellect of discursive thinking - at this level it is said, true and absolute knowledge is possible.
More on Vedic thought from Sankarsana dasa: ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// The Ultimate Self Realization Course (tm) The World's Leading Self Realization Training System Guiding Thousands Around the Globe to the Highest Enlightenment ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Under the guidance and inspiration of ISKCON Founder-Acharya: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Published daily to bring you the teachings of His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari ***************************************************************** ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// The Seven Basic Principles of Reality ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 1. Since everything comes from something and nothing comes from nothing, there must necessarily be an origin or a source for all that exists. 2. Since so many persons exist within reality the source must possess personality. Otherwise how could it produce personality? 3. That Original Supreme Person is emanating us from Himself for the purpose of enjoying loving relationships with each and every one of us. Therefore the purpose of our existence is to love Him there only this will satisfy us and nothing else. 4. Out of His infinite kindness upon us, that Supreme Person is giving us a system by which we can revive our forgotten, dormant love for Him. That system is known as bhakti yoga or devotional service. 5. That Supreme has many names such as Krishna, Allah, Christ and Jehovah. He either personally appears in this world or sends His representative, the spiritual master, to us to teach us how to revive the dormant love of God within our hearts through bhakti yoga or devotional service. 6. That bhakti yoga process of reviving our dormant enlightened consciousness is centered around the chanting of the Holy Names of God. Although any names of God may be chanted, the Vedic literatures especially recommend that we chant these names to quickly be elevated to the pure spiritual platform: Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare 7. Since we are what we eat, we should only consume vegetarian foodstuffs that have been offered first to the Lord with love and devotion before being eaten, and we should live a simple pure existence free from sinful activities such as meat eating, illicit sex, intoxication, and gambling. Sankarshan Das Adhikari Contact Information: Phone: 1-512-835-2121 Mailto:sda@ultimateselfrealization.com
I would deeply question any course that has to frame itself with such hyperbole and flash. Even if true, traditional Gaudiyas have had a rustic sweetness in their methods. I hope we see the return of those days.
Looking up and reading about Krsna was my first real study of God...then i realized that none of the other religions could satisfy my beleifs of a formless supreme God but with the countless Manifestations that Krsna talks about...i think Hare Krsna is a beautiful religion, and defend it when anyone ever calls it a cult... Peace Everyone, and happy soul searching, and hope you have good spiritual guidance...
Care is needed here Burbot. I agree that Hinduism is not a cult, and nor need Krishna Bhakti be a cult. But where ISKCON are concerned, the movement as started in the west by Swami Prabhupada, there are unfortunately all the hallmarks of a cult. The problems have come mainly through two causes. First, Prabhupada's commentary on the Gita is both limited and misleading. Second, before he died, Prabhupada nominated 11 of his senior disciples to act as spiritual masters after he was gone. There has been much controversy over this, but the outcome was that several of them turned out to be criminally minded egoists and even perverts. There have been a number of criminal prosecutions, for offences ranging from extortion to child-abuse. Nearly all the 11 have now 'fallen' in one way or another. I met one of these pretenders some years ago - Bhagavan Gurudev, who impressed me as a phoney at the time, and has since served time in jail for his part in this scam. When Prbhupada died, a friend of mine who was a devotee went over to Tirthapada as his guru. He told his followers that they should take drugs to know God, and ended up being murdered in an horrific manner by a disgruntled follower. For some info on all this see http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/black/bogus4.htm Nowerdays, ISKCON 'spiritual masters' are elected by a committee. If you like Krishna that is good, but please understand that ISKCON represent only one aspect, one limited cult whose ideas diverge quite a bit from mainstream Hindu belief.
oh ya, thanks for that info BBB, but what i mean by that i was like defending the people who just devote love to Krsna and like that... just for the record...I am not a follower of Hinduism or ISKCON or any sort or Hare Krsna-ism, or any orgainized religion for that matter
I will always be thankful to the Krishnas during my New Jersey hippie days. They were different, energetic, loving, and fed a lot of people. I bought a few books, and decided that there was no way I would give up sex at 50, (one of the requirements for being a devotee) so I never called myself a devotee...I did Love Krishna, (still do) even tho I hadn't called him Krishna when I was a Christian child. I gave up Christianity, and loved Krishnas message. He was the original cook, lover, dancer, atom maker, musician. I believe we all have the original gift..a fragment from our loving creator. He said "There was never a time you didn't exist"...so who am I to argue with that ? The books I read changed my life. Divine Nature, Science of Self Realisation...I was able to see what all of it meant, by looking around me.(and I learned about the 4 divisions which isn't a caste system at all) I don't believe there is one set religion to fill the needs of all the people...but the Hare Krishnas gave me more than Catholicism ever did. I just couldn't follow the recommendations in a perfect way. The Krishnas had a bad scandal, and I read the story. (Monkey On A Stick)...but corruption can happen to any group...look at the Catholic church...and Jim Jones, etc. The Krishnas have done far more good in the world than harm. When we truly know God, we trust him. A simple loving reciprocal relationship is all I need. Too much dogma, and I am out the door. Too many "must do" rituals, and I will rebel. I light insence, and talk to God because I want to...not because it is in the rule book. When we have God dwelling within, we never feel alone. And we learn we cannot pull the wool over his eyes...I have had people ask me why I gave up Christianity, and I tell them that it was impossible to believe the bible in total, and that women were not given equal status in the church. I have good Christian friends, and I have faith in their faith, but not necessarily their religion. And I also know some Fundie Christians who give me the Willies.
PS. The Cow Protection Society (ISKOWP) also elevated my views pertaining to the need for treating animals well, and the results of bad Karma...when we do not.
http://www.iscowp.org/Photo Gallery.htm I wish more people felt this way in the USA, and the world. Cows give more than they take.
