Mass Shooting 13 Dead Thousand Oaks California

Yes, I said I don't remember, public record or not. When I get time I'll look back through the record and see what the context of my comment was.

Concerning pistol grips. What do you mean when you say ergonomics? Ergonomics deals with efficiency.
Are we in agreement that pistol grips have a function?
Am I correct in assuming you feel that muzzle rise does have a detrimental affect on targeting?

Concerning rapid firing in a mass shooting. I suggest you listen to the audio.

​

Here's what I found about our discussion about muzzle rise.

Now, if you look at post #178 I think you'll see you made that statement, not me.

Here's where I make a comment about muzzle rise after all your's listed above:

So you agree that an AR15 has muzzle rise?

 

No that's wrong. The militias were intended to aid the government as there was no standing army...as in the Whiskey Rebellion.

 

Well, he's wrong on that.

 

Okay, I didn't search far enough. I found it in post #270.
You agree that an AR 15 does have muzzle rise.
Is it your contention that an AR 15 has so little recoil that muzzle rise is negligible and will not affect targeting under any circumstances?

I know the definition of ergonomics.
So you agree that an ergonomically designed pistol grip has a function?

I'm not going to argue over who said what unless it's relevant. And when you quote me please cite the thread and post number so that I can respond.

And I'm not going to speculate on how much muzzle rise affects targeting in certain situations as that is impossible to prove.
All I want to know is if a pistol grip has a function, and what that function is.
And I want to know if it has anything to do with control of the rifle in your opinion.

Finally I'm getting tired explaining all this, but one last time.
All rifles have muzzle rise.
A pistol grip is an ergonomically designed feature, one function of which is to aid in the control of the rifle when it is fired.
One way it helps control the rifle is to combat muzzle rise more easily than a rifle without one.
Muzzle rise is much worse when firing rapidly.
If someone pauses between each shot...then they are not firing rapidly.
Muzzle rise makes it harder to target on successive shots, unless the time between shots allows the shooter to lower the muzzle and re aim.

Certain jurisdictions and the federal government have concluded that pistol grips in combination with other features are defining criteria for the legal definition of assault weapon. Note the federal law was allowed to expire.

 

Excuse me, I forget how you respond to many of my posts.
But first remember that I said a pistol grip along with other design factors. I would never ban a BB or pellet gun that has a pistol grip whether the barrel was rifled or not.
I should have said "Is the affect of muzzle rise on targeting in any mass shooting negligible in relation to this thread". Although I am interested in knowing if muzzle rise affects targeting in any circumstance also, except maybe when a weapon is bolted down on a sighting block.
Didn't meant to go off topic, in your view.

So I will amend my question to you.
Is it your contention that an AR 15 has so little recoil that muzzle rise is negligible in a mass shooting (four or more people) and will not affect targeting under any circumstances in a mass shooting?

I don't understand your contention that a shooter using a semi automatic weapon never pauses between shots. I don't think I ever said that. I said if they do pause, then they aren't firing rapidly. And please don't nit pick about how long the time between shots are. By rapid fire I mean as fast as they can pull the trigger. It could be a two or three round burst or longer.

Now on to muzzle rise.
What I did was load up Auto Cadd and draw out the path for a projectile leaving a 16" barrel. I started at one end of the barrel which I left stationary and at the other end I raised it one inch. I then extended the line out in increments of 2 feet. So 2 feet, 4, 6, 8, and 10. I stopped at 10 feet even though an AR 15 is effective at least up to 600 feet.
At 10 feet the second projectile would hit it's target 7.5" above where it was aimed on the first shot.
Now we pull the trigger as fast as we can without taking time to lower the barrel.
The third shot hits it's a target 10 feet away 15" higher than the first shot.
Fourth 22.5 inches higher.
Fifth 30 inches higher.
Sixth 37.5 inches higher.
Seventh 45 inches higher.
Eighth 52.5 inches higher. Or over 4 feet.
And I stopped there.
And this isn't taking into account controlling for left to right movement of the barrel.

If you consider that negligible...okay.
For 20 feet you can double the numbers.
(Note I didn't take into account gravity or wind.)

 

That's what I've been saying all along.
Here are some design factors from a few jurisdictions, I didn't look up every law in the country...I could spend all day looking these up, you really should do it yourself.
I didn't bother to include separate things like bump stocks and high capacity magazines, unless they were in the main text. And I didn't bother to look up specific weapons that are banned by name unless they were in the main text, although I have done that in the past.
1994 Federal Assault Weapon ban:
Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

• Folding or telescoping stock
• Pistol grip
• Bayonet mount
• Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
• Grenade launcher

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and two or more of the following:

• Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
• Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
• Barrel shroud safety feature that prevents burns to the operator
• Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
• A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following:

• Folding or telescoping stock
• Pistol grip
• Detachable magazine.

California:
The Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989 (AWCA), its augmentation in 1999, and the .50 Caliber BMG Regulation Act of 2004 have led to many restrictions on semi-automatic firearms. In addition to a list of specific firearms that are banned by name, the following firearms are banned by characteristic (from Penal Code §30515(a), formerly §12276.1):

(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches [762 mm].
(4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip.
(B) A second handgrip.
(C) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
(D) The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
In addition, (Penal Code §12001.5) bans, by definition, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles. Defined in Penal Code §12020; a short-barreled shotgun is defined as a firearm (designed, redesigned, or altered) to fire a fixed shotgun shell and has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches or an overall length of less than 26 inches. A short-barreled rifle is defined as a semiautomatic, center fire rifle with a barrel length of less than 16 inches or an overall length of less than 26 inches.

While a Rossi Circuit Judge (18" barrel) is considered a shotgun with a revolving cylinder (violation of #8 above), the CA DOJ claims it is legal because it has a rifled barrel. However, the Taurus Judge handgun is considered a "short-barreled shotgun" and therefore illegal in CA, even though it fires the same shot shell as the Circuit Judge, as well as has a rifled barrel. Conversely, there are many revolvers that fire shot shells made in different calibers (e.g. 22, 9mm, 38, etc.) mostly used to shoot birds or snakes. Even though these handguns, with less that 18" barrels, fire shot shells, like the Judge, they are legal in California.[citation needed]

Connecticut:

• Any "selective-fire" firearm capable of fully automatic, semi-automatic or "burst fire" at the option of the user;
• Any semi-automatic centerfire rifle, regardless of the date produced, that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the following features: 1) A folding or telescoping stock; 2) Any grip of the weapon, including a pistol grip, thumbhole stock, or other stock that would allow an individual to grip the weapon, resulting in any finger on the trigger hand in addition to the trigger finger being directly below any portion of the action of the weapon when firing; 3) A forward pistol grip; 4) A flash suppressor; or 5) A grenade or flare launcher;
• A semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the following features: 1) The ability to accept a detachable ammunition magazine that attaches at some location outside the pistol grip; 2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward pistol grip or silencer; 3) A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm without being burned (except a slide that encloses the barrel); or 4) A second hand grip;
• A semi-automatic shotgun that has both of the following features: 1) A folding or telescoping stock; or 2) Any grip of the weapon, including a pistol grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other stock, the use of which would allow an individual to grip the weapon, resulting in any finger on the trigger hand in addition to the trigger finger being directly below any portion of the action of the weapon when firing;
• A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has: 1) a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds of ammunition; or 2) an overall length of less than 30 inches;
• A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the ability to accept more than 10 rounds of ammunition;
• A semiautomatic shotgun that can accept a detachable magazine; or
• A shotgun with a revolving cylinder.[19]

Connecticut also bans listed makes and models of semiautomatic firearms and copies of those firearms. Grandfather clauses and other exceptions apply, depending.[19]

Hawaii:
Hawaiian law bans the manufacture, possession, sale or other transfer of what it defines as assault pistols. Hawaii defines an "assault pistol" as a semiautomatic handgun that accepts a detachable magazine and that has two or more of:

• An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
• A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
• A shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
• A manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
• A centerfire pistol with an overall length of 12 inches or more; or
• A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.[21]

In tandem with the assault pistol ban is a law that bans the manufacture, possession, sale or other transfer of detachable ammunition magazines with capacities greater than 10 rounds that are capable of use with a pistol.[36]

Maryland:
Maryland law prohibits the possession, sale, transfer, purchase, receipt, or transportation into the state of assault weapons defined as assault pistols and assault long guns. Maryland's definition of an "assault long gun" includes a list of 45 specific firearms or their copies, with certain variations. Maryland's definition of an "assault pistol" includes a list of 15 specific firearms or their copies, with certain variations. Maryland also defines an assault weapon "copycat weapon" as:

• A semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following: a folding stock; a grenade or flare launcher; or a flash suppressor;
• A semiauto centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds;
• A semiauto centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;
• A semiauto pistol with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds;
• A semiauto shotgun that has a folding stock; or
• A shotgun with a revolving cylinder.[22]

In tandem with the assault weapons ban is a law that bans the manufacture, sale or other transfer of detachable magazines with capacities greater than 20 rounds.[37]

Massachusetts:
Assault weapons are defined (with no exceptions, except pre 1994 models) as: (i) Avtomat Kalashnikov (AK) (all models), Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil, Beretta Ar70 (SC-70), Colt AR-15, Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR and FNC, SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12, Steyr AUG, INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22, revolving cylinder shotguns, Street Sweeper, and the Striker 12.

Assault weapons are also defined as:

1. A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any two of the following:
   • A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
   • A folding or telescoping stock.
   • A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
   • A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
   • A bayonet lug
2. A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any two of the following:
   • A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor
   • A second handgrip.
   • A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel that allows the bearer to fire the weapon without burning his or her hand, except a slide that encloses the barrel.
   • The capacity to accept a detachable magazine at some location outside of the pistol grip.
3. A semiautomatic shotgun that has two of the following:
   • A folding or telescoping stock.
   • A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
   • A fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds
   • The ability to accept a detachable magazine.
4. Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

New Jersey:
Under New Jersey law, a firearm is classified as an "assault firearm" if it meets the following criteria:[23]
Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and at least two of the following:

• Folding or telescoping stock
• Pistol grip
• Bayonet mount
• Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one
• Grenade launcher mount

Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and at least two of the following:

• Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
• Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
• Barrel shroud safety feature that prevents burns to the operator (does not include the slide of a pistol)
• Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
• A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm.

Semi-automatic shotguns with at least two of the following:

• Folding or telescoping stock
• Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon
• A magazine capacity exceeding six rounds
• An ability to accept a detachable magazine

“Assault firearm” shall not include a semi-automatic rifle which has an attached tubular device and which is capable of operating only with .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
Banned manufacturers, models, and types[edit]
The following manufacturers, models, and types are namingly banned:[24]

• Armalite AR-180 type
• Australian Automatic Arms SAR
• Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms
• Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms
• Bushmaster Assault Rifle
• Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900
• CETME G3
• Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type
• Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series (Colt Match Target Rifle are allowed)
• Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types
• Demro TAC-1 carbine type
• Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types
• FAMAS MAS223 types
• FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms
• Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns
• G3SA type
• Galil type Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1
• Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms
• M1 carbine type
• M14S type (M1A's are allowed)
• MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9mm carbine type firearms
• PJK M-68 carbine type
• Plainfield Machine Company Carbine
• Ruger K-Mini-14/5F and Mini-14/5RF
• SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types
• SKS with detachable magazine type
• Spectre Auto carbine type
• Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type
• Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types
• Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms
• USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun
• Uzi type semi-automatic firearms
• Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms
• Weaver Arm Nighthawk

New York State:
State law defines an assault weapon as:[25]

• Semi-automatic rifles able to accept detachable magazines and one or more of the following:
  • Folding or telescoping stock
  • Pistol grip
  • Bayonet mount
  • Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one[11]
  • Grenade launcher (more precisely, a muzzle device that enables launching or firing rifle grenades, though this applies only to muzzle mounted grenade launchers and not those mounted externally).
  • Thumbhole stock[11]
  • A second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand[26]

• Semi-automatic pistols with detachable magazines and one or more of the following:
  • Magazine that attaches outside the pistol grip
  • Threaded barrel to attach barrel extender, flash suppressor, handgrip, or suppressor
  • Barrel shroud that can be used as a handhold
  • Unloaded weight of 50 oz (1.4 kg) or more
  • A semi-automatic version of a fully automatic firearm
  • A folding, telescoping or thumbhole stock[27]

• Semi-automatic shotguns with one or more of the following:[28]
  • Folding or telescoping stock
  • Thumbhole stock
  • A second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand
  • A fixed capacity in excess of 7 rounds
  • The ability to accept a detachable magazine

"Large capacity feeding device" is any belt, drum, strip, magazine, or similar instrument used to feed ammunition into a firearm that has a capability of holding more than ten rounds.[29]

 

Multiple persons shot at Mercy Hospital in Chicago.