The brilliance of astrology, and why even some intelligent people do not understand.

Well Kandahar you seem to like to browbeat the kids with your modest understanding of the scientific method – and yet you know nothing about astrology, which you then go on to decry as rubbish. I do not understand how you consider it scientific investigation to put down that which you have not even bothered to investigate! That is scientific?


So I started this thread.

I should add, and should have included this before really, that astrology is neither an art NOR a science, it is simply astrology. It is huge in scope and actually includes both art and science, or perhaps religion and science, Jupiter and Saturn.

Only highly intelligent people can understand the deeper aspects of astrology, oh I suppose I should add Isaac Newton and Kepler as among those. I could write a list of 1000 brilliant persons who know astrology works, but Kandahar you would not be on that list my friend, not because you are stupid, but because you are obtuse and inflexible in your thinking and seem to believe there is only one way to view the Universe. You seem reasonably bright and were you to open your mind and do your chart you might actually learn something. In fact I would do your chart for you, and tell you not only your future but your past, and I would do it in this forum.

Astronomers measure well. Scientists measure well. It’s what they do - they measure stuff. Actually, that is what the scientific method is all about - measuring phenomena … and that’s fine with me. We need people who can measure and collate and file. I have nothing at all against the scientific method!

But the scientific method is weak on explanation of WHY, and has a problem dealing with more abstruse areas of phenomena such as the existence of life and death, and it still worries about how the Universe actually “began”! And by the way how soft-headed do you have to be to believe in the Big Bang theory!

“Science” cannot explain how life arrived on Earth, nor can it explain myriad astronomical phenomena – how about “forbidden lines” on the celestial spectrum?

Argue on my friend, and try not to devolve into pettiness … understanding the universe requires thinking as huge as “it” is …

 

Nice to have someone who knows what they're talking about here! Good work!

 

The beauty of science is that you don't have to conduct every experiment yourself in order to verify its claims, nor do you have to blindly rely on authority. The mere fact that you are ABLE to conduct the experiments, and the fact that every single time others have tried the experiment it produces a certain result, is enough.

Astrology offers NO testable claims.

And you had to go back 500 years to find an example. Name one Nobel Physics laureate that believes in astrology.

Well there you go! A testable hypothesis. I was born on March 28, 1980.

So is astrology. Saying "the planets did it" doesn't explain why.

If you have an alternate theory that is capable of standing up to the barrage of evidence, I'm sure the scientific community would love to hear it. Pseudocosmologists love to point to the errors of REAL cosmologists, instead of offering their own theories based on evidence.

What makes you so sure? Maybe PRESENT-DAY science can't explain that, but science in general certainly can.

As somewhat of an amateur astronomer, I have no idea what that is, which leads me to believe that its more pseudoscience posing as science.

 

i think the idea is not that 'the planets did it', but only that the position of the planets may be an indicator of a type of energy flow that effects people, something like a gravitational pull.

the beauty of it is that it is a testable hypothesis, and people have been testing it for thousands of years, and finding some kind of understanding from it. not everyone can get off on astrology though, i think you have to keep an open mind, and not take everything you find as fact. i dont mean that you should just ignore your inaccurate findings, just that you should keep in mind that everyone percieves things differently, and we have no way of knowing, who, if anyone, percieves things as they actually are.

it might be interesting to do your birth chart, even if youre sceptical. in addition to your birth date, we need to know what time you were born, and in what city.

 

March 28th 1980 is too general. I also need a time and place.

 

>>>> just that you should keep in mind that everyone percieves things differently, and we have no way of knowing, who, if anyone, percieves things as they actually are. <<<<

A monk once asked me how many rooms are in the one in which we are sitting. I said, "one right?" He said, "There are two people in the room, so there are three rooms, one for each person, and the real room".

 

Yes I quote Galileo, Leonardo Da Vinci, Isaac Newton, and 1000 other great minds who acknowledge astrology works.

In fact Newton was once admonished for his astrological studies by Sir Edmond Halley. His response was, “Sir, I have studied the matter, you have not!”

So are you suggesting that Sir Isaac Newton was an idiot? Or that Galileo, or Da Vinci, or Copernicus, or Tycho Brahe, or Kepler were idiots also who believed in totally meaningless rubbish? Are you really suggesting that?

It is doubtful that modern-day physicists or astronomers even STUDY astrology, so what do they know? (It always amuses me that those who know nothing about astrology are among the first to proclaim it is rubbish.)

And even if they DID study the subject they would have to do so in secret, given the intellectual tyranny imposed by the scientific community; no modern-day physicist or astronomer would EVER publicly admit to acknowledging astrology works, any more than an airline pilot would publicly admit to seeing UFO’s, although I personally know one who did.

If you are a “scientist”, to admit you study astrology or that it works is the career kiss-of-death.

 

Ah but I have seriously tried it and IT DID NOT WORK! See "Very Dissapointed" thread.

 

From what I see Bilby you did not calculate and interpret your birth-chart.

Simply buying a Sun-Sign book on astrology and then inferring astrology doesn't work because it doesn't fit you doesn't really say anything other than Sun-Sign astrology is mostly a waste of time, which I would agree with.

If you want to know about astrology you have to understand much more than your Sun-Sign.

 

I have already offered for people to do my birth chart.

 

11:17 AM

Lima, OH 45805

 

Lima, OH, eh?

My crystal astrology ball tells me that you were very bored as a child.

 

I'm not suggesting that they were idiots. I am suggesting that, in this case, yes, they believed in totally meaningless rubbish. 500 years ago, the scientific method was still being ironed out. We humans didn't really master it until about the 18th century.

But which is the cause and which is the effect? Could there be a REASON they don't study astrology?

Would such an astronomer likely be mocked by his colleagues? Yes, he probably would. Would all of his theories on astronomy (provided he wasn't otherwise a crank)be automatically disregarded by his colleagues because he believes in astrology? Most definitely not. While many scientists (myself included, I'm sorry to say) are often a bit too judgmental of those who embrace pseudoscience, those people are just as free as anyone else to study their discipline, formulate hypotheses, conduct experiments, draw conclusions, and publish their results for debate and criticism among the scientific community.

I don't think this is necessarily true (although most scientists are well-trained in the scientific method, and thus they reject astrology anyway). Even if it were true, could there be a REASON why this is so?

 

Well now that could apply to just about anyone, as we are all human. Give me something substantial, something that would apply specifically to me and not to 99% of the human population.

 

I disagree that science can not explain "why" questions. In fact, that to me is the principal purpose of science. For instance, why does the moon orbit the Earth? That is one why that has been answered by science, even if it opens up further questions . Science is not really about gathering data, data is simply used as a basis to formulate a hypothesis. In fact, some scientific discoveries have been more intuitive in nature, Einstein's special relativity for instance (although it was still drawn from data somewhat).

As for astrology, It can be tested! It may not lay out any fundamentals of the underlying mechanism, but the overlying structure and principles can be tested by science. You could, for instance take groups of paternal twins and siblings for instance, and make comparisons on psychological tests (such as the Big 5 or MBTI). If astrology is true, you would find that paternal twins would be quite similar in personality, and similar events happen to them at similar times. You would also find that their non-paternal twin siblings would have a larger divergence (the lower the age gap the better). This test would not isolate all the variables, but a modification on the theme could be used to at least get some interesting results.

You could also correlate a huge test amongst loads of participants, and see how they break down across the year as well. Again, if astrology were true you would notice that towards increasingly closer birth times, the personalities converge onto each other in likeness. If the test is large enough you might even notice abrupt shifts as the planets enter new positions (forgive me if my astrological grasp is tenuous on this exact point).

Sadly, not many scientists seem willing to conduct such a test . The previous poster was unfortunately correct that it would hurt their research reputation, which is crucial to a scientist who has built that reputation up as he/she has progressed through their PhD's and post-doc research.