Donald Trump

Asmo

Thing is I’ve known Rat for years at least 10 years possibly longer.

He was once openly a right wing libertarian (championing limited governance and self-reliance) then claimed he was not of the right or left (but pushing the idea of limited governance and self-reliance) and later claimed he was an anarchist (the type that wanted limited governance and for people to be self-reliant) and later still he seem to imply he was some type of primitivist believing people should abandon the towns and cities and go back to nature where society would be based on limited governance and self-reliance.

I’m not sure what he claims he is now but I’m betting it involves limited governance and self-reliance in some form or other.

And at no time in his journey has he been able to defend his ideas from criticism. Rat is a dead end.

 

Yes it does. Sure they can state the problem and can say they hurt, but it makes them unqualified to diagnose the problem CORRECTLY and therefore the solution.

You have a right to say your in pain. That's all.

 

To me it’s a matter of if the solutions people suggest can stand up to rational and reasonable scrutiny – Rats have not - in exactly the same way that Trumps wall is not a rational or reasonable solution to tackling crime, low paid work or unemployment in the US.

 

I disagree. If he had been giving solutions you might have a point. Thing is he has not really been busy with stating any solution. He just states what is wrong in his opinion. You might have a problem with the lack of solutions, but not everyone posting in these threads seem primarily focussing on a solution. Some are just giving their 2 cents about how things are now.

 

Asmo

I can go through all his suggests if you wish - from when he was openly right wing libertarian for example when arguing for minimal government –

The problem with capitalism today is that there is TOO MUCH government involvement and regulation… When you have a minimalist government, you have less intermingling of government and business, thus less corporate cronyism. The US is not a truly capitalist nation. It's is a crony capitalist nation, and libertarians, including myself, are against this as much as we are socialism.


He’s suggested over the years vastly reducing welfare (with the possibility it could be replaced with charitable giving) and imply the removal of the EPA saying “All environmental regulations do is cripple the country's manufacturing infrastructure and, in turn, the economy as a whole”

but let’s take something from his later primitivist period –

You asked what my alternative would be….It would require people abandoning the towns and cities and going back to nature. People would live in small communities where they would grow their own food, chop their own wood, and barter for goods and services. It would be similar to a TRIBAL system, where people would govern themselves and be self-reliant -- not rely on corrupt corporations and predatory government, believing it's their good shepherd and is there to serve and protect them.

He seems to have two pet hates ‘government’ and ‘socialisms’ (edit anything to the left of him) but his solutions to eradicate either don’t seem to stack up very well – just like Trumps.

 

How old are those posts? What does it matter if he affiliated more with right wing libertarians like 5 years ago? Lots of people change regarding politics. Not sure why you are holding it against someone that he used to have a different opinion. People's mindsets evolve (happily). Context IS everything. He has no proper solutions just like the next average joe and to me it has always seemed he was mostly just venting, not coming up with or proposing the ultimate solution. His alternative is highly hypothetical, and I think he's aware of that too. The idea of going back to self reliant small communities appeals to me as well. Anarchy however does not. Well, maybe if we had less people and more space on this planet but that is simply not the case. Anarchy is impossible in this day and age unfortunately. We need to govern certain stuff. But maybe we're going slightly off topic and this convo fits better in a different or new thread?

 

Simply amazing. It's really bizarre a person would actually dredge up posts from close to TEN YEARS ago to somehow paint a picture of someone's current views. Strange. These posts Balbus is quoting are literally from around 2004-2006.

 

Obsessively creepy

 

Or inspiringly enthusiastic/passionate

 

Hi Rat

Ok so you’ve changed your mind on these things?

Can you give us your current views then?

Regards

Balbus

 

Asmo

Have his ideas changed, he was pushing the small/less governance and self-reliance model at the beginning as he still does just as he still evades questions.

The point I was making was that people like Rat and the Trump supporters are angry and vocal but they really don’t seem to have thought much about how things would be made better and this can be dangerous because they can attach themselves to leaders that also haven’t thought things through or those who have their own agenda which more often than not ends up badly.

 

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to lump Rat in with those Trump supporters just because they're both angry and vocal about the current situation (which they both are, but there the comparison also ends)

 

Asmo

Yes they are both angry and both seem to have given little real thought on how things could be made better.

 

It seems neither of them has a good and realistic solution, which is a slightly different thing than not have given it any real thought. It seems also that you are kind of pressuring him to come up with a solution, like a certain kind of atheist pressuring a christian to give reasonable proof that god exists But if someone does not have such proof, or such a solution, you know you are pressuring for a disappointing answer which you then can tear apart and analyze and confront said person with... which has little point because they would never come up with their explanation if someone like you didn't pretty much demand it from them I would applaud the effort from Rat though, if he cares about giving in to this 'demand' (yes yes it is not literally a demand, but we both know you WILL hold it against him if he doesn't reply )

 

People whose mindsets are fixed and never change are the one's I'm wary of.

 

I'm the same about people who live their lives on the basis of the past. I went to a reunion when I was a teenager in San Andreas where I have a lot of cousins and aunts and uncles. I was amazed at all the family drama. But what really took the cake was hearing about an aunt's cousin who ran off with the mailman. They talked about it like it just happened. It was almost 30 years prior. The only reason she had a grudge was because the husband she left for the mailman was the boyfriend she had stolen from her. Layers of drama because they can't move the fuck on.

On the issue of Trump, he's pissed off so many people over the years I really expected to hear more horror stories. Stuff like "Trump laid us off and we lost our trailer". More of that shit seems to be aimed at Cruz. Bernie is bragging about raking in $14 million in February and making more money than Hillary. But it's probably the open to buy on Trump's credit card. The old ways are not working this time. Look at all the millions wasted by the GOP on negative ads. It's hilarious to watch the establishment squirm and get eaten by their own pets and their own rules.

 

My view is based on the perception that all of the established political ideologies have led us to catastrophe over and over again, yet the majority simply accept it all without really thinking, as though the political system were a 'given' like rivers or mountains. If somebody does try to question the system and it's structures and values, I don't think they should be criticized if they get it wrong or later on change their ideas. That seems to be what Rat was being accused of.

If I agree with Rat or not isn't the issue. He's thinking outside the box, and that's a thing we need more of.

I'm sorry for you Americans that your system is such a mess that someone like Trump can have such appeal.In my opinion it shows up the fault lines in the American system. But as an outsider it's of only secondary importance to me, as should Trump become president, it won't be me who gets screwed.(unless he starts world war 3) Already being screwed by the British establishment anyway, which is also fucked up but in a different way.

 

I take your point. It wasn't Rat's comments in particular I was aiming at, but Balbus criticism of Rat because he held views in the past from which he's evidently shifted, as if to change your views is a sign of irrelevance.

A word like 'sheeple' can be used in a kind of rhetorical way I think without requiring much justification. But I didn't notice he'd used it and I wasn't defending the content of PR's posts. Just his right to move onto different ideas without being criticized for that.

'Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative' - Oscar Wilde.

 

The guy searched through a haystack of 31,000 of Pressed Rat's posts to find what he wanted to make his point. He either knew right where to find them, memorized them somehow, or he has a lot of time to spare. Explain how that isn't obsessive or creepy at all.