the Usda wants the taxpayer to buy them GUNS

But let's look at the more reliable homicide figures and compare two figures


The overall number of homicides in the England and Wales in 2011-12 was 550 - there were 500 murders in Chicago alone in 2012.


Population of Chicago is around 2.7 million


Population of England and Wales is roughly 56 million

 

It never "answers the questions" of hardcore Liberals, who believe an endless system of violence, will bring peace, through war.



Let me ask you something (somewhat unrelated)...

What do you think of the State of Israel?

I don't believe a system of violence will ever bring peace. I believe some of our founders were correct with their ideals of 'freedom,' but the whole concept is corrupted to the core. it is not the people who can't live together peacefully, it is government imposing their will onto us, that is a bigger threat, than terrorism, russia, iran, gangs, mobsters and, small-time criminals combined.

a US Citizen is 8x more likely to be killed by a cop, than a terrorist. and, that's a Government statistic; i've known people who were in vietnam, and other such wars, who will tell you, that the government would purposely give a much lower casuality rate, so it didn't seem like we were killing hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens. the us government is the terrorist today, and they are literally spying on people like me, who say so...

If they were some organization out for the "good of humanity" and "freedom" and, "free speech;" then, why are all these things treated like a crime, in our own country? Meanwhile the Federal Government agents, (FBI,) are allowed to commit 19 felonies a d[FONT=Verdana]ay, to "c[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]atch b[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ad guys."


Too b[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ad th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]all the druggies c[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]an't just join the fbi, but, then there would be no one to snitch on. Seriously, i find it disgusting [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]an utter hypocrisy. The US feder[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]al government, is very cle[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]arly turning on us, with l[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]aws th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at tre[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at us [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]all [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]as subjects [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and terror suspects.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]


btw, if someone commits a crime,(that actually hurts someone) as I said, they're giving up their Right to live freely. Yes, someone is going to have to force that person to be caged, or perhaps in the event that he's armed, you may have to fight back. But, I don't think this would happen much in a society without the facade of government. It is them that are manipulating the economy and, killing people for no reason. That's the definition of "economic" and violent terrorism, and it's worldwide. This is why america is hated.

The beauty of the free market, is that all this would become private industries, and they'd all be controlled by different people. Which, i personally believe we will find much more sound, than one massive force racket, controlling everyone and everything, with an iron fist.

Humanitarian efforts could be taken care of, by state governments at first, but, that is only a transition phase. The idea is, to localize government at first, and without being under the clutches of the federal government (who steals 1/2 of what you earn, through different t[FONT=Verdana]axes,) people would prosper, h[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ave more money, more independ[/FONT][/FONT]ence, and, hopefully they'll realize, if it works out well, localizing 'government' to every individual, makes a lot more sense.


democracy, even in it's best form, is the 'majority' imposing it's will unto the minority. This is what causes social inequality in our society. Our
"Drug War" is a perfect example of that. Black people are arrested twice as much for drugs as white people, meanwhile, the percentage that use drugs, are the exact same. Moreover, the idea of the laws make no sense. Tabacco and alcohol, are more dangerous than 'class a' narcotics such as THC and LSD. but,
alot of people never use bad drugs, because their school told them it was "bad."


I think it is a matter of opinion, and imposing "the majorities" will, through force, isn't justfied... ever, imo.

Just because there hasn't been one, doesn't mean there can't be one.


and, sorry, but I find this a bit short-sighted.

 

What type of "power?" from
a Civil Rights aspect, I believe if you and a group of friends purchase some land, and you want to start a commune, in which, people care for each other, and share. I support that, because I support freedom, making your own choices and so on. But, the minute you impose violence on someone else, or steal/damage property, they have given up their Right to live freely, and it would thus be up to other security industries, or, the citizens to bring such people to justice.


It is not the 1800's; people are moral, and a majority of them don't want to cause harm. It wont be a "wild west" state, or, feudalism, unless you choose that lifestyle. I personally don't believe a farmer would want to move unto Ted Turners land, to give him food/money, when he could buy his own land. But, if someone non-violently agrees to such a thing, they must deal with the reprecussions as adults. I'm not saying there would be anything like that, but, you and monk jr. are imagining some filthy rich person that could buy up trillions of dollars worth of other peoples property. There are always gonna be a few people, who refuse to give up their property. an

but,
again, what type of power? It's a vage question...
*

But you're completely ignoring the fact that wealth only has influence, because of politicians. You think the wealthy are going to bribe citizens to dump nuclear waste? I highly doubt citizens would be so greedy or ignorant...

When you give
an oligarch power over our lives, you're allowing them to control what we eat, drink and, smoke. But, today it's much worse than that; today, we have our very own, real-life, Orwellian "Thought Police."

another thing I've gone over repeatedly; The past 30 years do nothing to represent my views. They are actually closer to your views on big government.

I already have like a million times. It's just easier for you to accept government, because evidentally it gives you some type of perception of protection. But, in my own personal experience, government makes things more complictated more expensive, and, has an obsession with spying on it's citizens... To me, that's the total contrast of "safe." Especially when Obama has given himself the Rights of a king or dictator, by saying he, (and any president after him) has the moral authority to take someones life, merely because they suspect him of "Terrorism"


My problem is with the system we have now, and since you can't grasp the severity and desperation our Government has put on us, through centuries of brutal force, you're never gonna understand why we NEED to make changes.. This government has far overreached it's authority, and 90% of them deserve to be impeached for corruption.


But, in my system, ideally corporations would provide (the very few departments that the Government actually provides legitimate services.)


and to make a real life comparison, look at Fed Ex or UPS, compared to the post office, which rapidly loses money. Meanwhile, the corporations who do the exact same thing, at a competitive rate, and they have a surplus. The freemarket makes prices go down, and better service overall. That's why I often bring up medicare. Because, before medicare, you could actually pay out of pocket for your doctor, OR for your insurance. there were more americans on insurance before Medicare, then there are now 40 some odd years later.


Instead of Liberals realizing that centralized government programs are a bad idea, that raises prices, they used peoples lack of insurance, as an excuse, for more government programs. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I think Liberalism is based on greed and the status quo, as much as "Neo Cons"are now

Moreover, I've also said, I don't just support tax cuts for the rich. Then, you went on this whole thing about how saving taxes is better for the Rich, because it's much more money.

My argument to that, is it's only still a very small percentage to them. The past 100 years in america, is a prime example of a mass manipulation of the citizens. they are making more money from the system the way it is, yet, the citizens never peak through the looking Glass, and realize it's not as it seems.

They have ways of transferring our money to the top tier of the elite. You can believe it's from a tiny tax cut all you want, but, I believe the use the government to make money on the current state we're in. Reagan was not Libertarian- even Ron Paul has said this.

Let me get back to the rest in a bit. This is my first day off in awhile.

Can I ask also, why, all of a sudden, every post I make is "too long?"
Did you guys limit the words I can say??

 

What is the likelihood of a U.S citizen being killed by a terrorist?
Then divide that by 8.
What is the likelihood of being killed by a cop?

'Killing hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens'

[citation needed]

 

25

Once again we get a lot of silly accusations, large measures of assertion and a very big dollop of evasion.

Why is it you seem unable to address the criticisms and answer the question in a clear manner?

*

This is just silly name calling and again it demonstrates you black and white mentality (either people agree with me or they love violence and war)

AND above all it doesn’t answer the questions raised.

who makes the laws?

who adjudicates the laws?

*

You did answer - what if someone refuses to consent?

But it just raises more questions because it gives little explanation and even seems contradictory to previous comments you have made.

I mean first you have to define what you mean by ‘hurt’? There are many ways of hurting people other than by direct physical violence.

Who decides what is deemed as ‘hurt’ and what type and severity of punishment to impose?

So you do believe in the principle of forcing compliance? Yet you have said repeatedly that you are against forcing compliance.

So if someone or something breaks a law and refuses to voluntary be punished you think they can be forced to comply – how is that different in principle to the things you say you are against?

Again who makes the laws?

*

So you do want government? Is that government still going to be funded through voluntary contributions?

Also as pointed out many times “localism is fine up to a point but only up to a point, for example someone – say X – lives in a prosperous area with high employment, they might ‘evaluate’ and find little reason to give since there are few disadvantaged. But only a few miles away their could be a town with high unemployment with many people in hardship but since X doesn’t live there, doesn’t go there and so cannot ‘evaluate’ that towns needs they have to suffer hardship.

If you have a national scheme with the duty, time, and knowledge to ‘evaluate’ things nationally if can move resources to those places where it is most needed.

But if often then that you get self serving arguments or ones based in prejudice and bias.

Why should I give money to people I haven’t personally evaluated I mean they are most likely feckless, scroungers.

The people around here don’t need so much help probably because they work harder than those feckless scroungers.

It’s basically a system that is most likely to advantage wealth.

*

So you don’t want a democratically based ‘government’ so what is your alternative?

Please explain why you think a democratic system brings about social inequality in a monetary based society the greatest cause of social inequality would seem to be inequality of wealth.

*

BUT you put up no rational counter argument – telling us we are wrong because you think us wrong is not a rational argument.

The fact is that the tax cuts of the last thirty years have meant the real term incomes of the middle and lower classes have fallen while the wealth of a few has grown vastly. Your solution to that problem is to have more tax cuts.

*

You have said it but have not addressed the criticism of it – my argument is that tax cuts favour wealth and that seems to have been back up by history – your argument is you think it wouldn’t because you think it wouldn’t – that’s not a rationally based argument.

*
How? Can you explain the fixes?

AGAIN I ask - show us where because I have not seen any rational explanation.

*

RE There never has been and never could be a ‘free market’ as shown and explained many times.

Just because there hasn't been one, doesn't mean there can't be one. and, sorry, but I find this a bit short-sighted.

That’s like saying just because there hasn't been a flying pig, doesn't mean there can't be one.

Sorry I live in the real world.

As I’ve explained the problem with a move toward a ‘free market’ is that it will always get hijacked by those that gain greater power and influence from that move and then use that power and influence to corrupt the system to serve their interests.

You claim that couldn’t happen without government BUT you have already explained that your system would have government and a government with forcible laws.

Try reading Free market = plutocratic tyranny.
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=353336&f=36

Actually nothing in your system seems designed to stop that from happening in fact as I’ve explained it seems to positively encourage it.

*

So you get those that can afford the very best, those that just get by or go into debt and what about those that couldn’t afford it?

*

Again your system seems all about wealth as power you get what you are able to pay for – if you are born into advantage you get advantaged if you are born into disadvantage you get disadvantaged. What happens to those who haven’t got the disposable wealth to purchase a different life like buying some land? Where is their ‘freedom’ , where is their ‘choice’.

In a system based on purchasing power those with more wealth have greater freedom and greater choice.

Who decides on the law?

Who adjudicates on those laws?

What happens if some poorer citizens want one thing and the paid for by the wealthy security agents are told another?

 

25

OK as you can see above you are still not addressing the criticisms of your ideas in anything like a rational way and you seem to be avoiding answering a number of questions about your system and where you do answer it only seems to raise more questions about that system and strengthen the criticism that it would favour wealth.

 

My views don't force my morality unto anyone, except a basic moral code, that we've all pretty much accepted as morality. (Don't kill,steal or, damage anyone elses property.)

Your 'belief' on the other hand, requires a system of brutality and violence, to impose your idea of "morality" on me, which includes deciding what i am allowed to ingest, where I am "allowed" to dance, and, can spy on me, from cradle to grave for "my own safety."

It seems like a hypocrisy to say I see the world in Black and white, meanwhile, it is you Leftists, who continually insinuate that without Government, Society wouldn't exist. It is ignorance based on the idea that they've grown big enough to force us into submission, and force us to accept things we know to be morally wrong. Like, Government use of force and, the state of Israel.


In fact, talking bad about the Government, UN or, Israel, is liable to get you spied on as a potential terrorist. But, in my eyes, it's also pretty black and white, because force and violence, on 313 million people isn't justified for the alleged "protections," we get from our fellow man (which is really untrue, because cops don't come, until the crime has alre
ady been committed.

Moreover, Cops do kill hundreds of thousands of people. The US Federal Government have killed 260 MILLION people, in this last century. but YOU don't think it's black and white, because cops don't search your car everyday, paw through your stuff or, shoot people with folded pocket knives, safely in their pocket.


The US Government (especially Michelle Obama,) LOVE to talk about how HORRIBLE bullying is.


But what does it mean?


bul·ly1
ˈbo͝olē/
verb
gerund or present participle: bullying
use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants.




^This is exactly what the Government does and is. This is what the Drug War is. People like you, are only advocating mass bullying, which is typically spread through fear and ignorance of other behavioral problems.

There are no laws, so no one. There is but
an obvious Code of Morality, which if one violates, is giving up his/her Right to live in a free society, and are risking their own livelihood.

yes, I did; by committing a violent crime, you're giving up your Right to live freely. Therefore, they don't have a choice to consent or not. Individuals have the Right to protect their families and their property.There's many ways an individual can do that.

Well, hurting anyone in anyway. Damaging/stealing property, or, hurting their family etc.

any real crime; rape, murder, robbery etc.


I believe we could have trials, without the corruption and racket of Government. However, I think the victim should take any means necessisary to defend themselves. In other words, if a girl is about to get raped, and she shot the guy in self-defense from an attack- I don't think there is anyone better to make that call other than her. although, I personally think pepper spray would be almost as effective to deter an attacker, but again- cops only show up after the crime already took place, and I don't believe anyone seeing a crime take place, and being the victim, should have to cower and wait for police, instead of taking direct decisive [FONT=Verdana]actions.
[/FONT]

You're using very tricky wording here. I said I'm against forcing compliance on non-violent people. This, is why i do not call for use of a Government, because ours especially, have been known for killing non-violent, peaceful people. in contrast, it is not forcing compliance to protect yourself, your family or, property.

It's merely a code of morality, among peaceful and understanding people. Simple stuff we know to be immoral:Killing, stealing, damaging other peoples property..


and 3 HUGE differences:

1-There is no centralized system of force, that kills, steals and, damages human beings, to so-called stop all of it.

2-We are not going after people for victimless crimes, like drugs.

3-there is no one power structure to corrupt
and control

I said "as a transition phase," this is temporary. and, we only do this, because we understand government has caused alot of the financial disparity, so in certain ways, it would be wrong to cut taxpayers off of their own money. But, wh[FONT=Verdana]at i'd like to see is no Government, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and, I think I m[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ade th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at perfectly cle[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ar.


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I think we will find this much f[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]airer th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]an Government, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]as in the freem[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]arket there is competition, which m[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]akes for higher qu[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ality products, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]a better price. Besides, if they c[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]an't initi[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ate violence, there couldn't become [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]another power structure like the Government. The Government only h[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]as the power th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at they do, bec[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ause, they c[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]an w[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]age w[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ar [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at will, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and, impose "l[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]aws" on everyone. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]This wouldn't be [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]an option in the private industry- as they are also bound to the "laws," even though, it isn't so much laws, as not doing anything to hurt anyone or damage their property. It should be obvious to the criminal that people will react, and for their own safety, they shouldn't even risk it. I believe such a society would make criminals think that way. [FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w8FSzDF1Sh8

 

25

Again this black and white thinking of yours – if people don’t agree with your viewpoint than they must want a brutal and violent system – I’m beginning to think this is just evasion by misdirection.

We know the problems what we are talking about here is our criticisms of your solutions

I and others think they would make a bad situation worse – can you answer those criticisms?

You want government you just want a type of government that favours wealth

You say that your government would be temporary but how are you going to make it temporary once wealth are in control as they would be in your system.

I mean you reduce the power of governance and give more power to wealth (as explained) and at some tipping point wealth will control governance directly. It would have control of ‘government’, the judicial system and the security agents (police and army).
How do you take that away from them?

Which brings me to the thing you didn’t answer about democracy – you seemed to be against it so how would this ‘temporary’ government be formed?

 

25

Actually it was left wing thinking that is behind most forms of anarchist thinking, which is about mutual aid, economic equality and sharing of resources (for Marx, communism, was just a stepping stone to an anarchist society).

Try reading ‘Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism by Peter Marshall
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0006862454/qid=1141817809/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/026-7013781-2335648"]Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism: Amazon.co.uk: Peter Marshall: Books


He has a chapter on The New Right and Anarcho-capitalism that you can read here -
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=2266805&postcount=10

It points out that right wing libertarian ‘anarchy’ isn’t really a true form of anarchy

Concluding -

Anarcho-capitalists are against the State simply because they are capitalists first and foremost. Their critique of the State ultimately rests on a liberal interpretation of liberty as the inviolable rights to and of private property. They are not concerned with the social consequences of capitalism for the weak, powerless and ignorant. Their claim that all would benefit from a free exchange in the market is by no means certain; any unfettered market system would most likely sponsor a reversion to an unequal society with defence associations perpetuating exploitation and privilege. If anything, anarcho-capitalism is merely a free-for-all in which only the rich and cunning would benefit. It is tailor-made for 'rugged individualists' who do not care about the damage to others or to the environment which they leave in their wake. The forces of the market cannot provide genuine conditions for freedom any more than the powers of the State. The victims of both are equally enslaved, alienated and oppressed.

As such, anarcho-capitalism overlooks the egalitarian implications of traditional individualist anarchists like Spooner and Tucker. In fact, few anarchists would accept 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp since they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice. Their self-interested, calculating market men would be incapable of practising voluntary co-operation and mutual aid. Anarcho-capitalists, even if they do reject the State, might therefore best be called right-wing libertarians rather than anarchists.

 

25

As discussed at length – that didn’t happen in the past – that is why people fought to get decent and reasonable programmes that actually helped people.

it should be remembered that private assistance was never capable on its own, it was always backed up or ran alongside public assistance. In the US this was based originally on the English Elizabethan poor laws, which the colonists had brought with them when they came to Americas.

Now even in upturns such private assistance as was given however genuine and heartfelt as it could be, could be inadequate, but during downturns that system was often overwhelmed (and giving could even drop in times of greatest need as people looked to their own needs).

“While the genuine warmth emanating from these volunteer institutions produced a true sense of community with revitalising effects in depressed urban neighbourhoods, participants quickly realised that private charity was not enough. Charity Organisation Societies modelled on those of London and Berlin had emerged in the early 1880’s to be succeeded by Associated Charities designed to prevent duplication of effort among the score of secular and church philanthropies, but relief measures possible under a system of private endeavour, no matter how earnest or how efficiently organised, could not handle the problems arising in periods of economic distress.

Public institutions to care for indigents, the ill, the widows and orphans, the aged and the insane never had money enough during boom times, and when hard times set in and the burden increased, city welfare budgets lagged still further behind the amounts needed.”
The Rise of Urban America by Constance Mclaughlin Green

Also we have discussed such things as sewage works and housing amongst others where public money and government legislation did a lot to help to improve the lives of people.
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=7471881&postcount=1290

You have to address the criticisms (explained at some length) that there never has been and seemingly there never could be a free market, there are always influences on it, that manipulate it to some interest or other.
PS: just telling me I wrong isn’t a rational counter argument.

What is to stop them initiating violence if they want to – it seems to me that they would have control of the law making body the judicial system and the security agents both overt (police and army) and covert (spies)

Remember many companies in the history of the US have used agents that have used violence to break up strikes and harrasse, beat up and even kill workers and they used spies to infiltrate unions. All your system seem to be doing is giving then greater power than then.

 

25

Who adjudicates?

First it is very important to know how these cases are to be adjudicated – all you say is that you believe we could have trials, without the corruption and racket of Government – fine so you believe but that says little, who appoints the judges and how?

I mean you are going to have a ‘transition’ government paid for by voluntary contribution (so mostly coming from wealth) so that would mean the judges would be paid for by wealth and so would presumably serve the interests of wealth.

That would seem to open the way for a more corruption not less.

Who investigates?

And who investigates whether a law has been broken or not? I mean if wealth is paying for the security agents and wealth is accused of committing the crime, would the agents be impartial?

Moral Code?

Morals change, and often laws change what we see as being morally justifiable– it was once moral to stone to death adulterous women (some places still do it) or it was moral to burn a witch - until laws were brought in stop such things. Some think it their moral duty to kill or attack abortionists.

It was once thought morally justifiable to own slaves, discriminate on grounds of skin colour or lock people away for being homosexuals.
Some moral codes involve the redistribution of wealth and those not complying with that are breaking that moral code.

So which moral code - you say there is an obvious Code of Morality, but obvious to whom?

*

You give us - Don't kill, steal or, damage anyone else’s property.

So don’t kill under any circumstance NO you say it’s alright to kill in defence so war is ok because that is about defence NO you seem to imply war is not ok.

Or are you saying there is such a thing as a good war and a bad war?
So who decides which war is a good one and what a bad one?
What if you kill in defence of your moral code (see above) who decides whose moral code has precedence over the other?

What if you kill accidently is that the same as killing purposely and who decides and come to that who decides if it was an accident or on purpose?

What if someone causes death(s) by negligence or unconcern for others safety (remember the 146 workers killed in the Triangle shirt factory)?
What if someone dams a river on their own property and cuts off the water to those further down? Is that damage to some else’s property? Who decides?

What if the dam builder wins the case and the other who were down stream take it into their own hands and blow it up, are they morally right or wrong to destroy another’s property?

*

You say that it would be a crime to hurt anyone in anyway.
So if some people are suffering from hardship (hurting them in many ways including their health) that is hurt.

What if others in that society could alleviate that hurt but refuse to do so then they are causing that hurt and so should be compelled to help or be punished for not doing so?

If through no fault of their a family finds themselves in hardship is it morally right or wrong for the father to steal food to feed his starving family or morally right or wrong to let them starve? I mean are they the victims or the criminals?

*

You say you think a victim should take any means necessary to defend themselves.

What if a judgment goes against someone in your ‘court’ they don’t think they have done anything morally wrong and see themselves as the victim of a miscarriage of justice – are they in their right to fight?

What if they are wealthy enough to have a sizable number of security agents more than do the ‘court’? Does the court go to war with the prospect of losing or allow the person off?

If that person wins is that morally right or wrong?

*

You say if a girl is about to get raped, and she shot the guy in self-defense from an attack- I don't think there is anyone better to make that call other than her.

What if it turns out that the man wasn’t a rapist she was just lost at night and he was just coming up to help her (he looked mean over six foot with multiple tattoos but a real gentle guy with a wife and two kids) she panics and fearing for her safety if he gets too close shoots him dead.

She has made her call in shooting the guy but has killed a completely innocent person, does she get punished?

*

Honestly 25 I could go on and on, there are other holes and seeming contradictions in your thinking but lets stop here – thing is that life isn’t as simplistic and clean cut as you seem to want it to be.

 

25

Sorry but everything you say seem rather simplistic and naïve, and ill thought through if indeed any real thought or research has been given to it all. It seems full of contradictions and unsubstantiated assumptions that you seem unable to address in any reasonable way.

It comes across as a belief system, a religion, based on an irrational hatred of public ‘governance’ and an incredibly rosy view of unfettered capitalism.

Ok once again the main criticism levelled at your system is that it would seem to end up favouring wealth to the detriment of everyone else.

Nothing you’ve said above lessens that charge in fact it seems to just make it more obvious.

 

You want government you just want a type of government that favours wealth " "


This just Shows how much you pay attention. Ive said many times, No government....

 

25

Oh come on read by posts please – I point out that you want a temporary government followed by no government

But as I write above how are you going to make it temporary once wealth are in control as they would be in your system.

I mean you reduce the power of governance and give more power to wealth (as explained) and at some tipping point wealth will control governance directly. It would have control of ‘government’, the judicial system and the security agents (police and army).

How do you take that away from them?

I think you are very naive to think they will let you have your utopian dream world (although to me it would seem more of a dystopia).

And as to your ‘anarchy’ I’ve explain that most anarchists reject it as any type of Anarchy anyway it would seem more like plutocratic warlordism.

 

25

What I’m saying that wealth will only allow you to weaken governance as far as it wants.

Basically it’s the ‘free market’ con game – you give wealth what it wants on the theory that it will lead to something better (where wealth will not have what it wants) – but all you are really doing is giving wealth what it wants.

And when wealth has what it wants that is where it will call a halt, no something better, instead something worse.

You are not in control the con is, and you end up doing wealth's bidding.

 

25

Ok watched the video

Another simplistic piece from that Adam guy – why do you watch that rubbish, I mean you only have to apply the slightest bit of scrutiny and questioning to see his ideas collapse.

I really think if you wish to expand your understanding of things you really need to do some legitimate research rather than listen to internet shyster like this Adam.

 

judges
aren't an extremely important thing to have, with regards to criminal trials. the deliberation is done by the jury, the judge is merely a figurehead of government, that was molded through years and years of accepting
the current 'justice' system and 'laws.'


i feel like you're trying to sc
are people, by repeating the Liberal nonsense, that without government, some bigger eviler "company" will take over, and rig our justice system.

If this happens, it is up to the people to deal with it. yes, that may be 'scary' to you liberals, who look at government as some protective overlord. however, when one realizes that democracies and governments are (even in their best form,) a system of brute force, control, theft and, racketeering- suddenly, there is NO excuse, to have a monopoly of force, to preemptively "protect us" from force.


Moreover, as i pointed out, the way they "protect" us, is by killing and spying on us- so, really, The People truly aren't getting anything, while the corporate politicians are getting massive embezzled money/power, from the taxpayer, who is losing these things, and the Liberal suggestion is "yeah, more of the same, please"

this is not what i am advocating.

the transition phase, i'm talking about, is to wean people off of their dependency to government. this means instead of having:
World Gov.>Federal Gov. > State Gov. > County Gov. > Town Gov. > The individual


the transtition would be:
State Gov. > County Gov. > Town Gov. > The individual



But, eventually, I'd like it to be: The individual


so, that is to say, getting people off of their government dependency, means letting the States take over the Humanitarian spending, and getting rid of the Centralized Racket of the Federal Government (peacefully of course.)

do you even read my posts to begin with? I've already answered to all of this..

There is no ONE power structure, that would bring someone to justice. If one industry is corrupt, there would be other Private Security Firms, who could punish the wealthy, just as well as the one's they're using.

No one is above the Law, or, has control of the law, and I find it extremely ironic, that your excuse for keeping Government, is fear of corporations making the Laws. I mean, Government is NOT protecting you from corporations, and imo, thinking otherwise, is just feeding into what they want us to believe.

Private Investigators do the same thing. and, unlike government, there is no favoritism towards banks and other such corporations.

It doesn't matter what was "once morally justifiable" since we are talking about doing it NOW in the year 2014, right??

It seems to me you're insinuating since people ONCE thought things were 'morally justifiable,' suddenly, under my system it would be, and that's just fear mongering rhetoric.


Really, many (if not all) of the "morally justifi[FONT=Verdana]able" things you mentioned, were pushed [/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and leg[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]alized, by the very s[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ame Government forces, you credit for 'fixing the problems.'


IE: It is well-known th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at the Britt[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]ish Corporate-Government had a big steak in slavery, being that a big portion of their economy of the time was from the slave trade, and they even encouraged the Southern States to succeed, and provided them with weapons and material support, to do it.

That "morality" was caused by ignorance, that, in many cases the Government worked hard to keep in place.

Segregation, in fact, which kept us away from one-another, was a Government law.

So, to act like it is Human Nature, and Government stopped us from savage immor[FONT=Verdana]ality, is unfounded. [/FONT]

It should be obvious to any semi-empathetic and responsible individual. Don't do anything that's going to hurt anyone else. i feel like 90% of individuals follow this code. People don't want to hurt one another, they just want to live their life, and survive. This is why Violent Crimes everywhere is going down.



However, I believe the most immoral thing about society today, is we have cops burning toddlers half to death with flashbangs, over a $50 sale of drugs, cops shooting dogs, kids, old people and, woman, due to raids on the wrong homes, for crimes which weren't violent to begin with, Cops searching teenagers and black people, just because they have a quota to meet, and they're taught that any citizen can be your enemy, and react that way, shooting individuals with pocket knives in their pocket.


Some police, take it to the next level, and steal drugs from the evidence room. my basic point, is having a giant gang, to protect us from small time criminals, is a logical fallacy, and the ONLY reason america's police are so militarized, is due to Government's "mor[FONT=Verdana]ality" which, is, it's only to be[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at someone up, shoot the wrong people [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and, b[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]arge into homes [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and fl[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ashb[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ang toddlers, just [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]as long [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]as they c[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]atch the guy who possessed something once, th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at they deem "immor[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]al" or, "h[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]aving no Medic[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]al benefit" (Schedule subst[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]ances like THC, and LSD) Of course, Cocaine and Heroine, according to our Beloved Mother-Government, has more Medical uses, than something that stops seizures and, can't kill you. [FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

This is a huge twist in wording. Yes, defense is okay, but we're not really a collective, as much as we live within these arbitrary lines.


Every individual has the Right to self defense. But, i don't believe the majority is the same as a government. in other words, if it's worth going overseas, being executed or possibly prosecuted for it, the "individual" can go to war, if it is that important to him/her.

However, it is clearly Governments who wage war on other Governments, however, if we were free people with no government, no Government would want to wage war on us, or, take our land, because they can see that we will not consent to illegal power structures, called "Government"

the one who does not initiate the violence. If I am on my property, and someone breaks into my home with a bat, I should be able to shoot him, and not have to worry about sitting in jail, like the strict Liberal laws of NY would have.

The problem you Liberals have accepting this, is you believe, because no one has moral 'precedent' over the other, that people will be running wild 'burning witches,' killing one another, and being serfs in a feudalist system.


It's all fear tactics pushed by Government. People have advanced morally, and we don't need Big Brother to have absolute power over us, to "live peacefully." we don't even live peacefully with them. and, I think it's funny you actually think that would be "worse" than the State of Total Corruption we're in. I think that's a prime example how Liberals ONLY trust the State, to fix all of these problems, primarily caused by them in the first place.

 

a jury of your peers. Why would we want to put anyone paid, in the process of catching people and locking them up? BTW- the Government gets money when they put people in jail, whether their guilty or not; It's no wonder the "Justice system" is a joke in this country...

But, if you accidentally kill someone, you run a risk of their family/friends retaliating if they like, caught you red-handed. This is why, it would be smart, not to just shoot a gun aimlessly, or mess with someone for no reason.

You're catching on a little. it is dam[FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]age to other peoples property. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ag[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ain, I think [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]a Jury of peers, th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at 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public, during the tri[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]al.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Even injuring the workers, is damaging other peoples property as well. Your body is your property. This is why you own the fruits of your labor, [FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and it is not within the Governments [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]authority to t[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ake th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at from you. Th[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at is to s[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ay, your: Life, work ethic, income [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ability to self defense. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

I don't believe the people will continually consent to such [FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]a broken system, when there [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]are much better solutions out there, even if we do have some problems, they wouldn't be near as bad as the horrific system we have, that perpetuates through Lies, theft, war and, death.

Wrong. It's always wrong to destroy anothers property, this is what protects people from pollution, drain the Great Lakes, and, other such corporate crimes, that happen today, under the Epa.

Well, yeah, but it is not my responsibility to feed someone else, nor is it my fault if he doesn't. Morally, it is Right to help such people out, but, I do it on a local level, if I see someone who needs help, I'll help them out. But, if you really think about it, $3 is enough to buy 3 hot meals at Mc Donalds (it's something,) if they decide to spend that money on booze, drugs or, food is their decision. But, I can't be blamed because he's an alcoholic, or, drug addict, and, would rather that than food.


Let me clarify, I'm not saying all bums are alcoholics or druggies. But, I am saying, that people make their own decisions in life, and it's not my responsibility, with the measely $8 per hour I make, to help someone else, when he's made his own choices. I'm not in a good living situation, but, I still work. They can work too. I imagine 75% of people on foodstamps could work just fine, but, it's much easier, to sit on their but, and collect my money, and, it should be on me, to pay for those type of people, who don't contribute anything.

No, because that's what Government does, and you never know what someone is going through. I JUST made enough money for rent this week, and the few bucks government is stealing from me, could've helped ME with food, but instead, it's shipped to Israel, Jihadists and, a very small amount goes to Humanitarian efforts, in the BIG beurocratic vault of taxpayer money.



But, I do think Businesses who have profitted through Government: recieving bailouts, changing laws in their favor,starting wars for profit/resources and, overiding the Constitution, should be tried for crimes against humanity and treason, and their money should be returned to the taxpayer.


Without them, and without Government, Individuals would be able to flourish, and keep the fruits of their labor, a bigger job force would be created, and there would be much more money going [FONT=Verdana]around, th[/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]at the Working Cl[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ass would dissip[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ate, [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]and, turn into the middle cl[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]ass (like it w[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]as before the Government exp[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]anded m[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana][FONT=Verdana]assively.)


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Well, I mean, he obviously didn't try pan handling first, because most americans aren't going to watch some kid starve. we don't really need government to force us to help one another, people are moral and empathic enough to understand, it isn't the kids fault. and BTW,I've actually bought a homeless women (who looked to be on crack) and her son a footlong subway sandwich, because, I'm not going to let a kid starve for their mothers mistakes. In a case that bad, I blame the mother, for spending her money on crack, and, not on food in the first place.

There's only certain reasons one would go to court, and evidence would need to be seen etc. It's no different than a court today, other than the people will represent the people and, the accussed can represent themselves, or, be represented by whomever. There's no need for a judge, who merely listens to the Jury, and overhears the case, or, this can be done voluntarily. It's funny you said 'court,' because that's how I feel about the real 'courts.'

The courts don't have any special army or police force, that would be a government.

I don't think this is really relevant, but that would be on the jury. it's a good example though, of why an armed populce, wouldn't be shooting just anyone.

Sorry, but, I think the contrast. I don't see the world as simplistic,and that's just more Liberal jargon.

Government Sympathizers believe only a system of force, will "fix" the problems, that they've widely caused. and btw, yes, I say anyone who believes in the "lesser of two evils" or, who believes in taxing more/expanding government support force, because look at what they do- they FORCE people to not ingest certain things, they FORCE people to pay their taxes, they FORCE people into Government programs and, they FORCE people, to obey their laws, no matter how arbitrary and pointless they may be.


I have sooo much more I could say too, but what I mostly want to say, is the Liberalism is buried in the lie, that the way to peace, is to have a structure of violence which usurps power from every individual, on this planet. In contrast, this is a lie, spread through Communism, which was financed by the same elitists behind Bush's,Romney and Obama. This means more government, or any government for that matter, will never bring peace, because a structure of control is the exact opposite of peace.


By believing the Government's propaganda, The Liberals of today, have become part of the very same corporate power structure, you pretend to oppose...