European culture--- American culture

I enjoy seeing the differences between USA and Europa, because there are many. The governements and the traders of both sides are very friendly to eachother but the people don't see you as the hero's that came to liberate us from the nazi's anymore. I think the friendship has cooled down (from European part).

I was wondering how the American look at Europa.



Cheers
Dutmala (the Netherlands)

 

I'm not sure that "the heroes that came to liberate us from the Nazis" was ever the way most English people viewed the Americans.

"The guys that sat on their arses for more than two years while Europe was bleeding, then reluctantly joined when dragged into it against their will, but nevertheless insisted on charging us for the material (if not the men) that they sent to our aid, so that after the war they were filthy rich while we supposed victors were nearly as bankrupt as the vanquished."

That's much closer to how the immediately post-war generation saw the Americans.

Oh yes, then there was the resentment that when they DID come to our aid, they were all paid so much more (because America hadn't had to bear the cost of the last two years of war and so could afford to pay its men more) so they just flashed the cash and showed the English girls a much better time than the English guys could afford to ... that REALLY caused English fellas to think highly of them.

Still, they didn't wait QUITE so long to get involved second time around.

There's an old observation about these American "heroes" of the first world war. It goes like this. Did you know that the only thing the Americans ever charged in the first world war was the 10% interest on the money they lent us?

 

Same culture basically that worships a bunch of zeros consisting of entertainers, sport stars, and reality TV morons. I mean, western culture is western culture. I will say that it seems Europe has a better taste in music overall, though. Better fashion sense, too.

 

Dont agree with that. My own parents were definitely of the immediate post war generation, and they certainly regarded the USA as saviours during the war. Even now my mother doesnt like to hear any critism of America.Id say they were wrong, and that it was the Russians who really defeated Hitler, whilst FDR entered the war in europe to stop the soviet war machine rolling right across the entirety of the continent, as they might well have done. Britain would not have been in any kind of position to prevent that. So the Americans saved us from the Soviets more than from Hitler.

Second thing is that the idea of America being surprised at pearl harbour may not be entirely the truth of it. It has been suggested that Roosevelt deliberately provoked Japan into an attack, and that intelligence of the Japanese fleet steaming towards pearl harbour was deliberately held back. Rossevelt it seems saw that Americas entry into the war was inevitable, but the American people were not convinced at all. After the Japs attacked, that all changed overnight, and FDR made his "day that will live in infamy" seech. A canny politician if ever there was one.

As for WWI, its likely that had the US not come in, Germany would have won. As it was, the German surrender was made on the basis of Woodrow Wilsons famous 14 point plan for "peace without victory". This was all shredded by Britain and France at Versailles, creating the exact conditions in Germany for Hitlers rise to power some years later, and hence to WWII. Just as Wilson himself had predicted.

Mybe you think we would have lent the US money on some low interest rates, or supplied free war and other materials without money changing hands.....I think that its highly unlikely.

Myself, I like many things about America, but dislike American foreign policy.
The folks are ok, the govt. not quite so great. But the same is true here in Britain.

 

Most popular music, from the Jazz Age, through rock n roll to rap has originated in America and been copied by British and other European artists. That seems quite obvious.

 

Europe is the land of my ancestors and, as such, I look at Europeans as my extended kin, regardless of whether they all share the ethnicity those ancestors. I try to keep current with current European affairs and history as much as I can and hope our relationship with the continent stays strong.

Do I find faults with Europe and Europeans? Yes, about as much as I find with my fellow countrymen. Chief among those faults is that I believe Europe as a whole has lost its spine. Yet there is also much to admire about both as well.

 

Im not sure Europe ever had a "spine". Unless you count the Alps!
Its not at all like America where you have one dominant language and culture and a history of federalism. In Europe peole are generally only patriotic when it comes to their own country. I have never really heard anything resembling patriotic sentiments expressed about Europe as a whole.
In fact in this country, most people dont think of themselves much as Europeans at all, and some feel closer to America, again because of the common language and history.

My own case is different, as I am a quater French, quater Irish and half english, so I do feel a kinship with the French, a race many English regard as the ancient enemy. I gues the rebel in me comes from my Irish blood.

But if by "spine" you mean courage, Id like to hear more.

 

Courage, yes, in a sense. It is a complicated feeling I have and, therefore, is hard to fully explain. As an outsider looking in I feel that the nations of Europe, and as a result Europe as a whole, are loosing sight of and their grip on what made them great. I see your cultures and identities, which I believe are more alike than many want to admit, slowly being diluted and made irrelevant by a sense of "we can't offend or exclude anyone, even if it means loosing our identity". Does that mean there aren't Europeans fighting back? No, not at all. They are, I think too easily, labeled "racists", "fascists", "Nazis", etc.... I just see a general sense of resignation and outright cowardice when it comes to holding on to what makes you who you are.

 

You make some good points, and in some ways you are touching on what are big issues in Europe as a whole. But it is a very complex situation.
Here in the UK for instance, the old culture has changed very much even during my lifetime. Immigration has had a big effect. But even there it isnt simple.
Britain after WWII was opened for immigration largely due to the colonial past. We were short of labour, and West Indians were encouraged to come here back in the fiftties and sixties. At the same time came peole from the Indian sub continent, more muslims that other groups. They held British passports because they had served the empire.
The far right over here seem to be more against muslims than the other groups.

But over the last decade or more, there has been a new influx of immigrants from countries such as poland, who are now free to come because they are in the EU. Currently, there are scare stories about thousands of Romanian and Hungarian workers about to arrive here, as they will soon be legally free to do. There are stories in the media about how they only come to get free healthcare and benefit money. They are taking jobs away from British youths etc. Some truth in that.

So there is a perception in the minds of many that immigrants from within Europe pose as big a threat to "our way of life" as muslims or other non european migrants. They want to come here because they can earn much more money even as the lowest paid in Britain than in eastern european countries. A fact that shows the faultlines along which eastern and western europe are divided, mainly still an after effect of the soviet era.
The threat from east europeans though is largely economic. There are cultural difference but theyre not so intense IMO.

With the influx of Islam, things are different. Myself I am no right winger, but I dont think we should be allowing Islamic schools for example. It is leading to a situation where Muslims are not becoming integrated into european culture, but seem to be creating their own enclaves. Figures like Tony Blair talk about us all being "children of Abraham", but I feel that is disingenious and misleading. There seems to be a big chasm between modern european liberal values, which are much the same as American values, and Islamic values, and I fear, they are likely to remain incompatible.

The French are a little bit more into defending their own liberal values with things like banning the bhurka in public. I feel the UK should follow suit. The trouble is that there is a doctrine of political correctness, and any criticism of Islamic culture is not exactly encouraged.

I myself would like a more federal europe, and one in which we do stand up for our own values and cultures. In the UK however, federalism is a dirty word to the majority.

 

I am sure you are right ... but I wasn't describing MY OWN attitudes (something that those who have negged me appear to have misunderstood) but those of the people at the time.

They may have been right ... they may have been wrong. Who knows? But it's not difficult to find evidence of the attitudes that I have reported.

But hey ... shooting the messenger is such good fun, isn't it? Why don't we all have a go?

 

I am sorry if I misunderstood the drift of your comments. At least I felt they were worth commenting on myself......can be a rare experience round here at times.....

And actually, I agree there was a certain resentment of the Yanks in Britain during the war. And even my old dad, who was true blue imperialist, but very pro American, still thought the Americans a bit crass.

Let me explain further Beachball. For me WWI is a bit emotive. Thats because my grandparents met when my grandpa was gassed during the war, and my grandma was a French nurse who looked after him. After the war he returned to France and they married. So I owe my existence in a way to the war. My great grandfather on the other side of the family was killed at Arras, and my maternal grandmothers father fought all through from start to finish in the middle east.
So I have tried to come to some understanding of it all, and what I said about Wilson and Americas role is just a part of that.

Anyway, I didnt mean to shoot the messenger.

 

I think you nailed it, Bill. Though, I am not sure a more federal Europe is the answer, simply because I am worried that the cultures you hope it would defend would be minimized for the sake of some grand, and I think made up, European culture. In addition to this, if current EU policy and statements are anything to go by, I believe those at the helm of that organization have anything but defense in mind. I believe them to be of the same mind as Mr. Blair.

 

But you can't really say that with certainty, can you? Some of the people at the time, perhaps?

 

Does this all have to be related to the two world wars ? Anyway, Europe is a continent not a country. I like little bits from the States and eg France and Italy.

 

Well ... if we had to be able to prove 100% unanimity for any proposition, then we'd never actually advance any thesis, would we?

DUH!

The expression which was current at the tiem was "Over paid, over sexed and over here"

Says it all, really, doesn't it?

You got documentary evidence that the majority opinion was "Hey ... these Yanks are the best things since sliced bread? They're so wonderful we can forgive them their late entry and their insistence on taking all our Caribbean bases for their 50 clapped out old destroyers that we needed"??

No?

Didn't think so.

But hey ... don't expect me to post in this forum again. You're all far too ready with the fucking thumbs down just because you don't like the historical truth. Hey, I might not like it either, ya know? But I don't like pretending that the truth is anything other than it is.

I mean, yeah, sure ... it would be EASY to pretend that hey, the Brits have all loved the Americans despite their siding with the French when we were fighting to save Europe from Napoleon, and taking their own good time to side with us when we were fighting WITH the French to save Europe from the Kaiser, and doing the same thing again when we were fighting to save Europe from Hitler.

But that wasn't how the British people at the time saw it, right?

You thing otherwise?

WELL THEN ... PRODUCE YOUR FUCKING EVIDENCE???

No fucking evidence???

Thought not ... so don't fucking give me the fucking thumbs down for telling the fucking truth, OK???

Get over it. There's more than one view of history than "America is the best thing ever invented" OK?

Britain ain't the best thing ever invented, either, OK? I don't pretent that it is. But I don't try to suppress the truth, either.

Enjoy your forum. You've made it clear you don't want me here. Fine. I', outa here.

 

To quote Basil Fawlty out of context "dont mention the war"........

 

The fuck? I think you need to calm down and realize no one is accusing you of, or attacking you for, anything. I never said America is the best. I never said anything about evidence. All I was saying is that, perhaps, generalizations like the ones you are making aren't very fair, accurate, or truthful. Thumbs down? The hell?

Yeah, maybe you should go if you cannot handle an honest discussion without blowing your stack. Talk about childish.

 

Yes, it s a vexed issue.
Another diemension of it is that here in the UK with its mosques, madrasas etc, it might be seen as inflamatory to limit the rights of muslims to follow their own culture. The govt. dont want to encourage anti Islamic sentiment maybe because they fear the consequences, and they are worried about the extreme right.
Under Hitler we saw what can happen to culturtal and religious minorities, and I dont think any sensible person would want a re run of that, or anything similar. Yet the idea of "internment" for muslims who wont play the game is a policy of the english defence league, a far right group. To me it seems like a slippery slope from that to something far worse.

I dont want to go too off topic here, but I think a lot of the difficulty is because most people here are quite ignorant about Islam and its history. A couple of years back, a prominent extreme right winger, Nick Griffin, was tried for inflamatory remarks he made to a meeting of his party that Islam is a "wicked and vicious religion" which was "spread by the sword". Despite trial and re trial he got off. The first comment is questionable I suppose, as it is a subjective moral judgement, but part 2 seems to be the indisputable truth. Much as I dislike Griffin I have to admit that is so.

So I think it is difficult for leaders in europe to strike the right balance between defending euro cultures and not stirring things up against the muslims.

 

You're being a bit defensive here, Sig.

My displeasure was directed at those who disagreed with my post but, rather than stating their point of view, chose instead just to give my post the thumbs down.

I'm always up for honest discussion and open disagreement ... but in an environment where people come forward and articulate their views and their reasons. This forum has too many people who appear to want to criticize the discussion without joining it for my taste, that's all.

 

A bit defensive? You responded directly to me. You cussed me out. I think you realized that your response was completely unwarranted and childish, so now you're trying to backpedal and trying to save face. It isn't working.